We’re Not in Lake Wobegon Anymore

Well put as only Mr. Keillor can do. I just hope we send George back to TX.

Wonderful! It is time for change and we need to vote and to encourage others to do the same!

Finally a Dennis Miller script for the other side.  I’d been thinking that if Whoopie Goldberg and Will Farrell continued to be the only comedians on the Kerry stage then I’d have to vote for George because a civilization is only as good as its’ humor.  (And I’m not ashamed of casting my votes based on the comedians supporting a party ... I figure it’s about as intelligent as casting a vote based on belief in a bearded grampa-god and no one questions that <g>)

I heartily agree with most all of the sentiments in response to Mr. Keillor, and certainly with his arguments - but it ain’t going to amount to a hill of beans if people don’t actually get to the polls on the 2nd - so please do all you can to encourage those who might be dickering to get out there and register, and even more importantly, show up on the day.

In response to Joel Pfyffer. He says we are upset because we lost the 2000 vote? LOL! No, mr pfyffer, we are mad you STOLE the election in 2000 and hijacked America in the process. Bush did not win anything. But he has in the last four years certainly proved he is a man of vision….....a blurry, fuzzy, unfocused, vision that crystalizes in refracted clarity when it comes to making decisions that make his buddies rich…........no matter what the cost.

    VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY

You go Garrison!  I’m pulling the same lever you are in November.  They won’t know what hit ‘em!

Geez, cowpox - time two move forward a century. Oops, sorry, make that TWO centuries. Leave the hate behind? The war you’re angry about ended long ago - there’s another one you—as an AMERICAN - should be more concerned about, and it’s going on right now.

Thanks Garrison, for your powerful eloquence.

Great article!  Now, how about the Democratic party? Its become nothing less than a mean spirited, holier-than-thou bunch of hideous cretins, itself. You are no longer the caring side of politics, but just a shill for the (1) party system – a whipping-me-too boy for the republicans.  You stand for Z I L C H.  While you scream in agony over Ralph Nader, you only offer up the lame “anybody but Bush” pitch…n o t h i n g more.  Kerry is a killer – just as the Boy Idiot is. And he now says he’d do exactly as Bush did in Iraq –WMD’s or no WMD’s.  He’s a killer, a corporate shill and a FAKE.  Would his “style” of warmongering make you feel better when you gas-up at the pump? Is that it? Kinda like – “war without that pesky guilt feeling?”  If so, then Kerry’s your guy, for all others, I encourage you not to waste your vote on Kerry, but to support Ralph. I know I will.  Bush & Kerry = the same results.

Bush has turned his unelected presidency into fear and terror and has started a war that was built on lies.  He has ruined the US economy, put young Americans on welfare, and Americans are afraid if they stand up against this administration that they are not supporting the troops.  I cannot believe that any family that has lost a son, daughter, husband, wife in this terrible war will actually vote for Bush.

I grew up in the 1950’s Republican family described by Keillor and I still have my jewelled “I LIke Ike” buttons but i haven’t found a Republican candidate to equal him and after the 1992 Republican Convention I knew for sure I didn’t belong in that party so I switched officially but I could see that the Dems were moving away from the valueable liberal concepts and programs in order to win votes not from the poor but from the increasingly more wealthy suburbanites and that Clinton’s support of free trade was aiming to please the world wide economy and its corporate leaders and not the workers in any country let alone in the USA.  Now we see the consequesnces and I hope know that adjustments must be made.
Oh, how I yearn to return to Lake Wobegon and its decent civility.

Susan Prentiss

Okay, cowpox showed a great poem by William Blake. Then he went crazy. Here’s the deal America. You’re an idiot! Hey, I’m a member so don’t think I’m not insulting myself as well. We let this crap in politics happen and we simply sit on our thumbs and elect complete losers. Wake up and elect a real person. Grow a brain and elect someone who is a human being with a soul. It’s not that hard. That’s why if you ever see the name Gabriel Sesmas running for office, you would do well to check that box next to my name. It’s time politics be taken back for the people in our nation. Nuff said.

In response to Mr. Arnold. A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush slick. Think about it. Nader is not even on the ballot in half of the states. Why waste your vote now? Wait until your guys have a chance.

Irony, Incarnate

Garrison Keillor attempts to write, and in doing so, proves he can’t.  That’s irony.  He aspires to creativity, but succeeds in spewing forth a Hunter S. Thompson, stream-of-consciousness, stream-of-bile; a retread.  Just another noisome, boomer, narcissist (oh, rare indeed), throwing out insults and lies someone else thought up.

“This year, as in the past, Republicans will portray us Democrats as embittered academics, desiccated Unitarians, whacked-out hippies and communards…”

Yes, and they will do so by holding up a mirror to your faces.

Dear Garrison:
Please don’t mellow out as some would have you do.  Democrats have tried to be moderate republican-lite for too long.  Milk toast will not get people motivated, the truth will.

I believe the real solution is for people to stop or reduce their support for big multi-national corporations that finance the Republicans.  Don’t shop at Walmart, buy your food locally at farmers markets (organic if possible), buy US made clothing, buy economy cars, and turn off your T.V. and unsubscribe from cable or satellite TV.  It’s funny this would also help the environment and the US trade balance.

Just my two cents.

I spotted a few minor errors you may wish to correct:

An accurate description of the Democratic Party should read “communist shills, midgets of public radio, tax thieves, nihilists in tie dye, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks, little honkers out to diminish the rest of us.”

This paragraph also describes liberal Democrats perfectly, with only a slight edit. “Lies pop up like toadstools in the forest! Wild swine crowd round the public trough! Outrageous gerrymandering! Pocket lining on a massive scale! Paid lobbyists sit in committee rooms and write legislation to alleviate liberal guilt! Hypocrisies shine like cat turds in the moonlight!”

In summary, you should stop projecting.

p.s. Since your pathetic show can’t succeed in the real world, stop stealing my tax money to subsidize it.

Keillor’s latest book, “Homegrown Democrat”—a selection recommended by www.SoonerThought.com—is hard to read because every few pages or so I have to stop and yell “Damn right!”

Buy the book..and vote Democrat in November.

I’m with you on everything but… “and there was a degree of plain decency in the country.” (re: Eisenhower era) I don’t think those who were lynched and excluded from society would agree… Just like with Abu Grahib when everyone said it was so un-american what we did - Abu Grahib was quintessentially american, we lynch, we maim, we dehumanize, we segregate, we colonize - we need to own up to our own ugly history - when we don’t we allow the George W’s of this country to flourish

Completely devoid of facts, and chock full o’ hate!  Keillor got one thing right, though:

“This is a great country, and it wasn’t made so by angry people.”

Which is why Keillor and his ilk are irrelevant.  Four more years, baby!

Well-worded, eloquent, and seething with thinly-veiled rage.  But, alas, at the end it is but the stuff of The Democrat Everyman: smoke and mirrors, signifying nothing, and ultimately banal.

I am so thankful for any and all who have the courage to speak out against the horror.  The fact that you are read and respected across the political spectrum makes your contribution all the more powerful.  Your statement has been circulated far and wide. Thank you.
David Chandler—http://www.lcurve.org

We’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto.  The Coalition of the Conniving and the Clueless have hijacked the whole damn country and we’re all going along for the ride.  Better strap in—it’s gonna get bumpy.

Well, I see that a few more frat boys (Fat Tony, Truth) have gotten out of bed this afternoon. You boys ought to just roll back over and go back to sleep—you’re much more articulate when you’re snoring.

If the few Bush-loving Republicans who have bothered to respond on this thread (and the even fewer who have had anything articulate to say) really believed that their Party’s bed-rock principles were worth defending, they would be distressed that their party’s handlers are hiding the trolls who represent that bed-rock (Delay, San(ctimonious)torum, Falwell, et al, ad nauseum) this week at their convention. Instead, their party’s voice this week is tactically—and dishonestly— represented by pro-gay rights and pro-medical marijuana Schwartzeneggar, pro-choice Giuliani, pro-campaign reform and pro-all veterans McCain. I hope that their party’s decision to run headlong away from the “moral clarity (sic)” of its platform during this convention nauseates them as much as their party’s duplicity, weak spine and hubris sickens the rest of us (including the many, many more Republicans who have voiced their disgust for Bush on this thread than have defended him.)

Speaking for myself, I would contribute again to the Republican Party (though not much) to hear Dick (“go f**k yourself”) Cheney discuss the “moral clarity” of the Republiban Party’s platform supporting a gay-bashing constitutional amendment on prime time. I will admit that my respect for him went up several notches last week when he spoke from his heart, and in defense of his daughter, when he said that the federal government had no legitimate place restricting the freedoms of gay Americans, much less demonizing them. Until then, I thought his right-wing bile ran thicker than the blood he shares with his daughter. To his credit, I now know better. And it gives me even more energy to engage intelligent, morally clear, family-centered Republicans in additional dialogue about the disconnect between their worthy high ideals (as articulated in Garrison’s piece) and the neo-con-derthal slime they are hot-tubbing with these days.   

Speaking of which, who’s minding Bush’s brain these days? Just in the last week, Duh-bya has discovered global warming (though he still wants no part in doing something about it), now honors Kerry’s Vietnam era service and agrees that it was more courageous than his own (there, something I can finally agree with Duh-bya on), has confessed to “miscalculating” in Iraq (and I didn’t think he could even pronounce such a multisyllabic word) and has admitted we perhaps can’t win the war on terrorism (though it sounds like—today—he found his own pair of flip-flops to fit his own shifting opinion on that point). On the final issue, since Bush’s policies continue to create more terrorists faster than we can kill them, he may be right there also. The first step to winning the war on terror is to remove that insensitive Chickenhawk—and the rest of his then-timid and now-bellicose flock—from office and from representing us (and our real American bedrock values) to the world.   
 
Defend America. Defend free speech. Defend the right to privacy. Defend a woman’s right to choose. Defend all veterans and honor their service. Defend a multilateral and multi-strategic approach to foreign policy. Defend states’ rights to approve medical marijuana for their sick and dying citizens. Defend the sanctity of our bedrooms and the privacy of our reading lists and credit card receipts. Defend our higher nature. Defend the Golden Rule, not the lust for more gold concentrated in fewer hands. Defeat Bush.

Better you had left the curtain drawn on your personal prejudices Mr. Keillor.  Lake Wobegon will never be the same for me.  Adios.

An accurate description of our present condition, but no elucidation of how the valiant residents of Lake Wobegon (and the rest of the country) have let this happen—and continue to let this happen. 

And no suggestions for reaching, teaching and/or helping them change their minds and/or votes (not that Kerry represents much of an improvement).

Bernie Ellis - Tsk, tsk. My mother used to say to such creatures as Fat Tony that she’d debate them but she never fought an unarmed man.  She also drummed into me constantly: Consider the source. But you *are* very fun to read!

It seems some editing is also needed to clarify Bernie Ellis’ last paragraph. A more accurate rendering of his points should read: “Defend free speech for those who agree with us, and silence the opposition. Defend the right to perversion. Defend a woman’s right to murder. Despise all those baby-killing veterans and slander their service. Defend an ineffective approach to foreign policy. Defend criminals’ rights to poison children. Defend our right to undermine the moral fabric of society. Defend our animal nature. Defend the Golden Rule - rich Democrats outnumber rich Republicans ten to one, so we should be able to rule with an iron fist. Destroy America.”

Just so everyone knows. ... a key provision in “No Child Left Behind” is that schools are now abliged to provide name and contact information of students becoming of age for selective service.

Every bill has a rider don’t it?

Kurt

Oh! I almost forgot. Anyone read that bill for the $87 billion to “support our troops?” I did. $4 billion each to Egypt and Turkey. $7 billion in loan guarantees to Israel. Hundreds of millions for domestic law enforcement. The actual amount for the war in Iraq was closer to $50 billion than the $87 billion advertised.

Maybe that’s why it is so easy to “flip-flop.”

Seems to me that Congress did not authorize a war in Iraq. If I recall the verbaige correctly, it was an authorization for the President to use the military “if it were to become necessary” so as to provide leverage for negotiations with Sadam Hussein.

Our memories tend to generalize, but the Devil is in the details.

Kurt

As a Democrat with a hairy back, I resent being lumped in with Republican fools. Shame on you.

Garrison Keillor.  “Just” an entertainer, a throwback to Vaudeville, a radio personality of the old school.  And yet, consistently, he analyzes the political scene with a rapier wit that puts the professional pundits to deep, deep shame, calls them the way he sees them in a manner that really ought to put the journalist establishment to still deeper shame, but doesn’t, and by god he pulls no punches, either.

Bless you, Mr. Keillor.  Keep it coming.

Folks—PLEASE join me in emailing this article to everyone you know, especially in swing states, especially to potential Bush supporters.

Bernie, I wasn’t going to respond to your post, but since Joanne thought I was fun to read, I decided I owe it to her.

You, like Keillor, got one thing right.  I was a frat boy—in the late 80’s.

I was only pointing out that calling people hateful names, while cathartic, does not contribute to the debate.  You folks really should have nominated Dean.

I agree with Brooks Imperial, this piece was an eye-opener for me.  The lips of even the most calm-voiced spokesman of the left are flecked with foam when it comes to this election.  I’d love to hear him sputter this bile on the Prairie Home Companion.

Fat Tony, dear - I’m sorry, but it was Bernie I was having so much fun reading. You’ll forgive me for not being clear, I’m sure. Or maybe not. Whatever. There have been plenty of foam-flecked lips on all sides of the issues discussed here, so lighten up pussycat.

Joanne, dear - I do so love your condescending and disingenuous tone. Little wonder it is so incontrovertible that the Democrats are the party of love and compassion.

A big “thanks” to you and Bernie Mac for substantiating the argument of Fat Tony and myself in such a tangible, albeit unintentional, manner.

Joann, Please allow me….........BOO!!!!!  Orang Alert…....

ther that should get rid of all the neocons on this site.

Before I go Joann let me say I agree with 99.9999% of what you have said for many days now and I think you have put more thought and effort into trying to have a dialogue with what is becoming a very difficult group of people. As Sun Tzu would say the first rule of warfare is to know your enemy as well as you know yourself. I would enjoy conversing with you anytime about anything.

Anon must be one of those liberals because the language he uses is that which he claims only liberals in good standing uses.

I believe God must be very liberal or HE would not have created beings such as these. I guess that means the joke is on them.

Ahhh, the self-righteous haters of self-righteousness.

Maybe if “OUR Mark Twain” could lead a movement to kill all the Christians our future would be assured. And maybe I’d better not give the crowd that frequents these pages any ideas eh?

Anybody tired of the hatred yet? Hummm , thought not.

OK then bring it on. You’re going to anyway.

maybe all the Christians aren’t where you think they are. Better ask them. They have a voice, they will tell you. I haven’t killed anyone in years.

Joanne:  Dang, girl!  That hurts.  But I forgive you.  Actually your post was pretty clear, guess I was fishing for compliments.  I should have known that, since I’m a “neo-con-derthal”, there wasn’t much chance of that.  Guess I’ll go back to figuring out how to stick it to the little guy.

Osama masterminded attacks on NYC killing 3000+ innocent civilians.

GWB invaded a neutered country which was not a credible threat to the US and kills 10,000+ innocent civilians (not to mention 900+ valuable military personnel) based on “proof” of WMD.  If we were in danger, where are they?  1.5 years later and not a single one was found. Oh the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, why did we not invade them? If ObL stands trial for war crimes, so will GWB.

North Korea admits they have WMD, but why no invasion?  That would actually mean going to war with someone who could fight back.  It’s easier to trounce a handicapped opponent and “win”.

If we were “liberating” Iraq, why did the Regan adminsitration put him in power in the first place?  Why not “liberate” the other countries ruled by horrible dictators who are also slaughtering their civilians?  Now many millions dead in Africa?  Why aren’t we moving on those despots?

Why can’t we finish business in Afghanistan—now the Taliban are regaining positions because we abandoned that fight we started.  Now there’s sabre rattling over Iran.  How many more people can we pick fights with and not follow-through?

Why would the “party of less government” want to deny freedom and liberty in the Constitution (created to protect individual freedom and liberty from the government)?  What are Republicans afraid of if two people want to liver together in happiness? Is their marriage so fragile? If you want to protect marriage, outlaw divorce. If you want to protect children, 94% of molestations are heterosexual in nature—keep kids away from adult male aquaintences of the family (escpecially priests.)

Speaking of the party of less government, the Federal government has only increased in size which each passing GOP administration and the national debt has become larger.  There may not be any “new taxes” but the average person is paying more for energy and healthcare now that those industries have deregulated and profits are higher than ever.  The pharmiceutical industry has been protected for actually having to face competition that the act of trying to import cheaper drugs into the country has drawn the fire of the GOP saying that imported drugs are the new tool of al Queda.

Oh please.  Enough jingoism.

I have yet to have a “discussion” with a Neopublican who can sucessfully counter each item with clear statements and supporting facts.  It’s just small worded repetition of dogma. 1+2=5.  There’s no room for reality, only repetition to hopefully make it reality.

Unfortunately it works.  Note the fact that 60% of America is overweight and we’re using Ritalin and Prozac instead of parenting.  Fill the roads with SUVs and then complain about feul prices (supply and demand is a lost concept).

The overfed sheep buy the GOP line because any threat to their addicted way of life is unthinkable.  Like rats pressing the button for more drugs—must, have, more sugar, and gas…must hoard and control to survive….enemies everywhere, must fight anyone and everyone…

Welcome to the US of Zombies.

Your The Man!!! I was talking to a guy today that loves bush. I asked why and he get’s real pissed and said, kerry will raise my taxes. But when I brought up facts. All he could say is will see. thay are corupted. I think it’s going to be cool a theif. being replaced by some of our greatest lawers. People Like bush don’t like laws he is above them.
If there is a god then he won’t get relection and if God is a lefty as i bush will be severing his counrty finly. in jail

I have to go to bed, but I’ll try to be the first conservative to discuss these good points by my arch-nemesis, Slim Anthony.

No doubt the lack of WMD takes a lot of the punch out of the argument for war against Iraq.  But Bush didn’t lie about it, he got bad intelligence.  Great Britain, Bill Clinton, and everybody else believed Saddam was a threat, and he was being belligerent.  How to start a war on terrorism when the world is full of terrorists?  Start with a sponsor.  I’m not convinced that Saddam was not a sponsor of terrorism.  Also, a convincing show of force and resolve does more than a UN Resolution to prevent future attacks.  Knowing what we know now, William F. Buckley himself would not have favored attacking Iraq, but we can’t back down now.  The Saudi’s and Pakistani’s are allies so we can’t attack them.  GWB shouldn’t be accused of war crimes because we’ve got a civilized army over there, doing their best to attack only combatants, not trying to blow up or cut the heads off as many innocent people as possible, like ObL.

North Korea has nukes so if we attack them a lot of innocent people could be killed.  They are open to dialogue, unlike Saddam was. 

I agree about Afghanistan.  We need to finish the job, and I think we will.  Iran (and Syria, for that matter) may have to be dealt with eventually, but the hope is having a sympathetic Iraq will help with that.

Regarding Africa, we can’t fight everywhere, there have to be compelling US interests at stake.  The case could be made that there are such interests in Africa, to prevent it from becoming a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, but we’re stretched a little thin now.  Reagan didn’t put Saddam in power, we just used him against Iran which was a bigger threat at the time.  It may turn out they were a bigger threat than Iraq all along.

Regarding individual liberty points, protection of time-honored institutions is a central conservative value.  Marriage isn’t perfect but the definition has been for thousands of years that it is the union of a man and a woman.  That’s the definition.  As a Catholic, I feel the Pope has not done enough to not only condemn, but take action against the American priests who have committed these heinous crimes. 

On your points about less government, I couldn’t agree more.  Cutting taxes is easy, trimming government is not.  I wish that all tax cuts required a corresponding cut in services, but GWB has let us down in this area.  I’m hoping that he will outline some solutions for the health care problem this Thursday.  I haven’t heard anybody say importing drugs is the new tool of Al Queda, just that it shifts the cost ultimately to American’s.  If American pharm companies are making the drugs, and the Canadian government is helping Canadians buy them, how will allowing Americans to buy them from Canada result in lower prices?  Maybe in the short term, but I don’t see that working long term.

On your final few points, I don’t think the GOP can be blamed for the admittedly sad state of your average American right now.  Hopefully things will improve no matter who wins.  I’m going on a diet tomorrow myself.  And no more Prozac and Ritalin after this next bottle.

Lyle - Thanks for the kind words and the chivalrous “BOO-ing”. Tell you a secret - I’m an ex-truck driver. I’ve heard much worse stuff on the CB than any of these pantywaist keyboard jockeys can come up with on their best day. One thing about driving a truck - it gives you plenty of time to think and to listen. If you have the standard issue of brain matter, you can learn a lot by listening to the radio, listening to people you meet from all over North America, and then taking it down the road. You have lots of time to process what you’ve heard. Public radio stations run CBC and BBC news during the wee hours, when I did most of my driving. I also listened to Bob & Tom in the morning, and some right wing talk radio, and I got an earful of that perspective on the CB whenever I turned it on.

I found your writing about Viet Nam very compelling and interesting. I hope you won’t think less of me when I tell you I fought the war at home, fought to bring you home. I was very involved in the movement and I want to tell you something from my heart. I never, and nobody I worked with, EVER spoke ill of a soldier for serving. It just didn’t happen in my presence. I’m sure there were incidents where people crossed paths and tempers flared. These incidents have become legendary, though I believe they were rare.

I wonder what kind of shape we’d be in as a nation now if we could have come together and held a truth commission along the lines of what the people of South Africa did after the apartheid ended. Many of us will never be able to agree on the causes and consequences of that war, but I can’t help thinking that a catharsis is long overdue.

And now we find ourselves in another such war.

On a lighter note, I have to say that Truth Revisited cracked me up. His moniker is as much an oxymoron as Bush Reelection. TR, if you’re reading this, you could try to distinguish between lightness and darkness, humor and trash talk. I was just doing my girll thing and sprinkling a few little endearments on Fat Tony - nothing for you to get so shirty about.

And Fat Tony, I think you’re OK. For a frat boy. But you know, well, you know we don’t agree but you haven’t been disagreeable to me and I appreciate that.

Let’s all just keep on trying to talk with each other. It’s OK that there’s a lot of deep feeling, even anger. It’s a sign of life, and that’s preferable to the deadly apathy that has half the population in its grip!

Halleluja Mr Keillor!!!!  Truer words were never spoken.

As for you Mr. Ancona, I have no more sympathy for your “non-kooky sister & grandma” than I do for “undecieded voters”  The stakes are too high.  We need kinder, gentler politicians runing for office.  But we will never get it with this political climate we are in.

Halleluja Mr. Keillor!!!  Truer words were never spoken.  To bad you can’t say it on Prime Time TV.

As for Mr. Ancona, I have no more sympathy for your “non-koky sister & grandma” than I do for undeceided voters” The stakes are too high.  We need kinder and gentler politicians run for office.  But we’ll never fet it in this political climate.

“Faulty intellegence” has got to be the most cowardly excuse in the book. The dead and their loved ones don’t care. “We sent your children to die in Iraq based on sloppy intellegence, sorry, here’s a nice folded flag as a parting gift.” 

The US has now joined the list of agressor nations.  I’m so proud to be part of the tradition of the USSR, Communist China, and Nazi Germany.

Did anyone think that this invasion is making us “safer” instead of pissing off more people, thus creating a bigger quagmire?

Weak, really weak.  How many dead and *billions* spent on “faulty intellegence”?  What about fiscal conservatism?  The GOP claims the Dems are “tax and spend”, but the GOP just seems to be “spend and spend”—who cares if their generation doesn’t have to pay for it.  Live it up now!

It’s got to be fun working at Halliburton these days.  No-bid contracts, immune from most accounting.  What a sweet deal.

The “definition of traditional marriage for thousands of years”, as you put it, was *polygamy*, the most prevalent form of marriage in the bible.

It was illegal in some US states to be of different races and be married—you’d be *arrested* if you married out of sate and returned home—all based upon “traditional marriage”.

“Let freedom ring!”

If you are going to hide behind scripture to cloak your intolerance why don’t you obey all of its rules?  Like stoning your children to death if they misbehave, not eating shellfish (I don’t hear about you picketing Red Lobster violating God’s Law), not wearing clothes of two different cloths (those wool/cotton blends at Sears must raise your ire too).

The list goes on.  Pick out just what you need to justify your bigotry and to limit liberty for others while you enjoy your own life.  How noble.

Still, if your church wants to be bigoted, fine, you have the *freedom* to believe anything you wish, but the equal protection of all in the civil realm should take priority.  It’s pure hypocracy to enjoy the *liberty* to worship and choose a life partner as you want, yet deny that freedom to others.

If Keillor is right, then how come Vice-President Cheyney has now supported gay rights?

So much unanimity on this board. Doesn’t it make you suspicious that no one has even one word of criticism or any objection. Everyone is is lockstep hating this Administration.

But if Keillor is right, then how come Vice-President Cheyney has come out for gay rights? Strange.

And Cheney was beat down for doing so and back-peadled faster than Lance Amstrong heading for a cliff.

I suppose that if Mr. Keyes was right, it would be illegal for a hetrosexual couple to get married and not have children.

Once again, narrow personal beliefs used to restrict liberty.  More GOP hypocracy.

” Alan Keyes, the Republican candidate for a vacant U.S. Senate seat in Illinois, said Tuesday that Vice President Dick Cheney’s daughter Mary is a “selfish hedonist” because she is a lesbian.

Keyes said: “The essence of ... family life remains procreation. If we embrace homosexuality as a proper basis for marriage, we are saying that it’s possible to have a marriage state that in principal excludes procreation and is based simply on the premise of selfish hedonism.”

Asked whether that meant Mary Cheney “is a selfish hedonist,” Keyes said: “That goes by definition. Of course she is.””

Joanne,

Thanks much. Drove myself before the Army caught me. College was pretty boring at the time. I don’t think less of anyone so not to worry. I was asked to do some cable tv shows locally in my hometown in MINNESOTA just south of the Twin Cities and one of them was about draft dodgers…especially those who had fled the US. It tore my heart out to see the parents who faced the prospect of never seeing their sons again. Hurt as much as losing the 57 KIAS in the year I spent in the field in Viet Nam. Gave me a better prospective to see their point of view and my conclusions were that I respected that they had the courage of their convictions to leave the US and face whatever befell them from that point on. Came to hate that war and all wars for what they do to humankind. My nickname in Nam was “hardcore” and I wore a helmet liner that stated make war not love. Only killing myself a little each day. I can’t change the past but I have tried to understand why we go to war and what it does to us when we do. War is death and dying, there are no survivors. If you would like I can give you a couple of websites to check out you may find some of the articles worth reading.

Keep the faith and proud to know you.Glad to be on the same side.

Excellent.  As an independent voting Christian moderate, I am insulted by Bush and any Christian who can support the greedy fools in the Bush administration.  I can only hope that more people will look behind the image and rhetoric of the Republicans and professional lobbyists (pimps), and finally realize that we are in a political war a home.  A war to take back this country from control by corporate extortionists and their “super lawyers” (extra legal power brokers) who are able write and rewrite legislation to suit themselves. 

I have awakened to the danger of the Washington lobbyists very late in the game, but was shocked to find that their were over 80,000 lobbyists in Washington in 1990.  At this point there is no telling of the total number of additional unregistered and embedded lobbyists willing to sell the citizens of this country out.  The President is supposed to be the watchdog for the people and our interests including the use of tax funds and enforcing the US Constitution. 

I would equate Bush to LBJ for shear self-centered willingness to do anything to get what he wants accomplished while considering all but the private jet set expendible.  If he wins, I think this country will have evolved into a true banana republic with no relation left to the sugar coated democracy I was led to believe existed.  The sins of former Presidents may have been great, but there is no hiding the lies, fraud, and uncompationate, unconservative direction this President has taken us in.

To Joanne and Lyle (and even Fat Tony too):

Just made the three hour round-trip from my isolated farmstead in middle Tennessee to Nashville to hear Kerry speak, in a very crowded airport hangar filled with hopeful people. Very friendly, very diverse, very energized, very focused, very proud. Kerry speaks to the American Legion tomorrow and the Nashville papers have quoted the Legionaires as saying they don’t want to hear about Vietnam—they want to hear about today. Bush had his shot with them this afternoon (and his focus was on terror—what a surprise), and tomorrow Kerry will talk. About a more effective approach to terror, as well as the inappropriateness and generational disrespect of dwindling veterans’ benefits, about exhausting all options before going to future wars, about demanding accountability from our war profiteers (how many Republican accountants out there would stroke out if their companies were presented with a bill from a supplier (like the one that Halliburton gave the Pentagon) with no documentation for over one-third of that bill, but with that supplier still expecting to be paid), about the consequences of the “back door draft” on the young families and small businesses (and on small town police forces and fire departments) of the Guardsmen and Reservists whose tours of duty keep lengthening ... oh so much to talk about to a roomful of veterans. Hopefully, the aging testosterone within the assembled there will be diffused by the memories of the fog (and sometimes the futility) of war that Lyle has written about so well in this thread. And of the very real and pressing needs of aging veterans, young families and small towns today.

It has been a real privilege to be able to “speak” with, and listen to, several of you through this thread. I’m too tired to go on for long tonight, because tomorrow is another day of registering newly awakened democrats (and Democrats). Today, I not only registered two small country store owners near my farm to vote, but got them both to agree to keep voter registration forms handy for their customers for the next month. Tomorrow, I hope to be as successful in reawakening democracy in my little (though deeply-loved) portion of the country. After all, we all live in Lake Wobegon—some of us just find ours in the hills and “hollers” of the south.

I too feel an affinity for several of you, and would love to celebrate (something?) with you soon. Fat Tony, you seem like a nice enough fellow, and it is good that you are flexible enough to see some inconsistencies in the positions that Bush has taken and/or has gotten us into. So I guess there’s room in my hot tub for you too, as well as Lyle and Joanne. As much as we might disagree, I expect the four of us would still find much to laugh about, and share. 

As for “Truth” Regurgitated and Anon/Ayawn, do you guys have real names and real opinions? (Why is it that the real right-wing nut-jobs can’t bear to stand behind their opinions with their real names?) Reading Anon’s posting in response to my last one, I just kept envisioning PeeWee Herman’s taunt: “Yes, you are ... but what am I?” And your point about there being ten times as many rich Democrats as Republicans ... you really need to be donating whatever it is you are smoking to a hospice near your home, because you are clearly deep in the ozone on that one. But that sort of unsubstantiated inanity did remind me of a new favorite bumper sticker (to go along with “Who Would Jesus Bomb?” and (a sticker on my 21 year old pick-um-up truck) “Bush Thinks You’re Stupid”) that I saw at the airport: “Partnership for an Idiot-Free America.” Now that’s an organization whose goals most of us should keep working to obtain, in the 60+ days we have left to save the Union, and the planet.

Keep the faith, and keep on truckin’. Yes, even I drove a “roach coach” one summer before entering grad school fopr the first time. Everyone should be a truck-driver once, so they would learn how to drive on the freeway with big rigs around them. Just as everyone should be a waiter once, so they would learn how to tip. See, Duh-bya, there are many valuable lessons that Daddy’s money (and connections) can’t buy. Working hard for a living, and learning how to survive on what you earn, are two of them. Night, all.

The People have been sold out by both sides of the aisle.

My representatives elected to the legislature have been superceeded by the unelected lobbyist peddling influence with cash.

And no one has the courage to stop this because it’s again like the rats in the cage getting free crack when they push the button.  No one wants to cut off the supply.

This great experiment in democracy is eating itself from within.  The power brokers are throwing distractions like “terrorism” and “traditional values” at the over-fed sheep called the electorate while the monarchy of wealth continues to stuff their pockets while no one’s looking.

This is not about “left” or “right”, it’s about “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine”.

But no one will do anything becasue we’ve been programmed not to question out of fear of being labled “un-patriotic”.

Well, this patriot remembers that this country was founded upon the distrust and limitation of government’s power and will cast a vote reinforcing that ideal despite the slime of a waffle-maker and and ambulance chaser hanging on the ballot.

I which I had a better choice.

For all you Nader and 3rd party proponents, you don’t get it either—you can’t buind a pyramid from the top.  We elect a President, not a King. Without a power base in the Legislature placing a 3rd party candidate on top will get us nothing but gridlock because there’s no one to support the agenda in the Senate and the House.

We need to fix this from the bottom-up unfortunatly—get out and vote for the ideals of this country—freedom and liberty—not the selfish, bigoted, comfortable status quo.

So ur saying Kerry will do much better huh?  Strange how he voted (yes he was actually in congress that day) for the war and even said so himself that Saddam H. must be delt with.  If kerry becomes president we are in a world of hurt.  This guy has not stayed straight on an issue his entire life.  You guys say Bush is using 9/11 for his campaining?  What do u think Kerry talks about non-stop?  Vietnam!  In which all he did was take a few “sniper shots” and pulled a guy out of the water.  There’s a swift boat veteran that lives 40 minutes from me and I heard his story not only on Fox News, but through his neihbor, my friend.  I could care less what Kerry did 30 years ago.

And about those swiftboat adds, Bush has nothing to do with them and even explained how he wished they would stop

Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we’re deaf, dumb and dangerous.

Very true.

I think Kerry voted for the invasion (this is NOT a war, we invaded a non-agressive country) because there wasn’t time to unravel the lies presented as fact.

I also don’t like Kerry, but I think he will do less damage.

At least he WENT into combat as opposed to AWOL George, and Chaney hiding at home.

These guys miss no sleep sending kids to die for their personal corporate agendas.

Slim Anthony,

Maybe a little gridlock would be a good thing. We’ve seen what happens when you get a three-branch majority in one camp.

Kurt

Mr. Keillor puts a sesquipedalian and logorrheic veneer on the standard Democratic swill… ho hum.

I’m not a Christian, but I wonder where I can get a copy of Keillor’s edition of the Bible, wherein Jesus evidently tells someone who asks how to get to heaven “See that rich guy over there? Beat him up, take all he has and give it to the poor.”

(As someone with Deaf friends, I am offended by the “deaf, dumb, and dangerous” line.)

I pity you poor hollow republicans. May God have mercy on you. Read about Nazi Germany and how the people went along with the Nazi party and you will read about yourselves. You will take note of the ending. You are blind. You are weak. You cannot think for yourselves.  Instead of criticizing Garrison you should try to learn from him. Knowledge is your enemy. Hate is your brother.
For every one of you that votes for bush you should sign up to serve in the military at the same time. Put your money where your mouth is. Ah ha I thought so. Talk is cheap just like the talk of your paper tiger that sends my brothers and sisters to die in Iraq. Get your butts over there and support “Your President” or shut the hell up and let some real thinking men do the work of fixing this country. Men who care about everyone not just themselves. Men who love this country and don’t want to put down anyone like your president and you seem to be hell bent on doing. If you want to fault democrats it is true that they care about both sides and that, when it comes to caring about you could be a mistake.

So go and vote for bush and sign up for the military and go to Iraq, adopt a crack baby, make your daughter/wife/mommy have a baby from being raped, destroy our environment, deny good Americans their civil rights, oh hell let’s bring back slavery while we’re at it, (oh did I tell you this time it will be you who will be the slaves, never mind). Imprison people without due process, give to the needy rich, your God is the only God (look how wonderful that is working out around the world), work for nothing (oh your good job was just outsourced), give more to the needy rich (the giving that never stops giving), put all your descendents into massive debt, and last but not least work towards a one party system for our country until you drop dead (hopefully very soon) because as we all know that is what has made our country what it is (was) today. Be proud of yourselves you Republicans, God speaks through your president.

We are fans from America and Lake Wobegon.
Thanks for articulating what so many of us feel.
Desperate times call for desperate language which you provide so well.Have ordered your new book from our English bookseller here.(Bergli Books)

Garrison pointed to ‘gut the IRS’ as a bad thing. This is the one thing the Democrats need to take and RUN WITH!! Read about the FairTax. All of it. Especially the idea of the rebate for living expenses. This is the one way to stop all the hippocritical talk about “doing something, as long as it doesn’t affect MY economy”. We need to put the cost of government on the back of consumption. Consumption is what is paying the lobbyists, the crooks, and the terrorists. Consumption is ending cheap oil. The end of cheap oil is just the beginning of oil PROFITS. If you think the oil companies and the Bush family got rich on the oil industry so far, wait until the price gets to 100.00 per barrel!! It won’t cost them anything to STOP pumping. But it will cost them if WE STOP USING.
Buy less, Buy local, buy only what you need. Get the Democrats to realize that the best thing to help everyone is the FairTax. PLEASE, time is short, and the Republicrats are vulnerable now.

Sesquipedalian logorrheic. Just the use of those words makes what they say hypocritcal. Seems to be appropriate discription of you. How clever.

Try to argue your point using facts intsead of bs James. Hey but then again a good republican never let the facts get in their way.

Joanne, Slim, and Bernie:

Posting here has been informative.  You have not been parroting the standard Dem lines and I’ve tried not to parrot the GOP.  I will still listen to GK whenever I can, and hope that we can get back to Lake Wobegon.  I don’t agree that the right has taken us away from there, I blame the Islamo-fascists, but I accept that you folks will disagree with me. 

I certainly can’t speak for everybody on the right.  But I want peace, liberty, and justice for all.  I think we can find areas of agreement between right and left to work from rather than blindly attacking each other and not listening.

Thanks for the laugh and views of one who makes his living by telling stories about a mythical town, habitated by imaginary people and supports a similar imagined Democratic party!

1. I liked FDR! He put people to work via WPA, CCC and allowed them to earn money, learn skills and help build America.  Today, via welfare, healthcare, subsidized housing and college scholarships, Democrats believe you give people everything and ask nothing in return.  How many generations of “charity families” will it take to realize it takes motivation and self-help to gain success?
2. I liked your comparison of Reagan doing ads while Mc Govern fought, but can’t figure why you chose Clinton who ran off to Canada and England rather than be drafted and not Bob Dole, a true war hero?
3. Lastly, I enjoyed your “blaming” George W Bush for the 9-11 catastrophy, having been in office only 8 months, but found no guilt with John Kerry, who had served in Congress for over
20 years and in recent years had voted to cut FBI budget by 80%; the CIA budget by 60% and NSA budget by 60%, while increasing funding to the UN by 800%.  Does he not carry some blame for the lack of security and intelligence?

Again, thanks for the laugh and Sen. Zell Miller hopes Gaarrison will come to his senses soon and join those trying to help America, not only finding blame with those who earn profits and put people to work!

Jim - fantastic illustration of how information, once again, fails to translate into wisdom.

Although it is against my better judgment, let me counter a few of your more absurd assertions:

1) “Read about Nazi Germany…” - I resent the de-facto implication that I am intolerant, or the even more insipid implication that I am in favor of the eradication of those whose opinions are contrary to mine.  I am a Christian, true, but I welcome, respect, and admire people of all faith and value systems.

2) “You are blind. You are weak. You cannot think for yourselves.” - My eyes have seen the emotional, psychological, and physical horrors of this world in ways that you cannot imagine.  It takes a man of true conviction to stand up in the face of horror.  I’ve done it.  Have you?  As for the inability to think for myself, since when has original thought become the Intellectual Property of the Democratic Party?  I hate to say it, but your words, Jim, only serve to convict your own narrow-mindedness.

3) “For every one of you that votes for bush you should sign up to serve in the military at the same time. Put your money where your mouth is. Ah ha I thought so…” - Jim, I signed up in 1988, at the age of 19, to serve my Air Force as a member of an air/sea rescue unit.  I was a week away from basic training when a previously disclosed medical condition disqualified me from service.  I cried because I was unable to serve my country.  So, true, I won’t be in Iraq in the line of fire.  But I would take up arms and die over there were my country to ask it of me.  Why are all you folks so scared of death?  I can think of no finer way to die than serving the country that gave us so much.  Iraq *is* justified.

4) “adopt a crack baby…” - have you?

5) “make your daughter/wife/mommy have a baby from being raped…” - I have never done this.  I am against partial-birth abortion, however.  I think it’s entirely heinous.

6) “deny good Americans their civil rights…” - I don’t care to do this.  What examples do you have of this happening?

7) “oh hell let’s bring back slavery while we’re at it…” - now, Jim, I think you’re getting a little carried away.  too much coffee this morning?  besides, it’s the Democrats that enslave black people through the welfare system that they continue to support as “charity.”

As for the rest of your slander, Jim, you do very well to earn the “boy” on the end of your moniker.  the last time I can remember being as angry as you was in college.  you’re in college, still, aren’t you?

Those who know me know that I am an open charitable giver, one who volunteers his free time to help the poor and homeless, mentors youth, mourns every time another soldier dies, and broadens his view of the world every day through the pursuit of literature, arts, and the careful consideration of opposing views.  Yours, I lament to say, I have given too much consideration to already.

Garrison is a smart man, he’s just wrong.

Cowpox seems to be suffering from it. Or, possibly spending too much time waiting for the apocalypse. In which case I’ll root for the roaches thank you very much. Thanks Garrison.

Fat Tony,

You might want to look up the word ‘fascist’. It isn’t just someone you don’t like, it also can mean someone who wants corporate/industrial interests to run state affairs.

That meaning pretty much rules out the Islamists, whether extreme or not, and doesn’t bode well for our current ‘leaders’ (using the term loosely).

It doesn’t have to mean a bad thing, but to be a good thing, it would require ethical behavior by corporations, which is pretty much ruled out by our current system’s tax codes.
‘Moderate’ Republicrats like to say we should be running government like a business. ‘Running government like a business’ would mean making ‘profits’ (constantly growing government, more military, marketing the need for more government, brand definition of ‘Democracy’) any way they can, regardless of whether the resources are taken from us, others, or the future people of Earth.
As long as profits are only considered cash money, rather than increased ‘net creativity’ of the human race, then government will always be run like a business, and business will always run government. If people want to believe that their destiny is to make money, then all they have to do is keep going in debt to buy ‘stuff’, and their freedom of choice is ‘sold’ to the system. The chains may be silent, but they are still chains.

Bill Henderson - well said!

Thanks Garrison for telling it like it is.  Kind of like the little boy in “The Emperor has No Clothes”.

Mr. “Truth”:

Once again there are only small worded sound bites and no justification in your statement “Iraq *is* justified.”  You don’t say why it is, you just say it like mantra hoping that others will believe.

Near 1000 US military caskets, 10000 unarmed civilians, $200 billion coming out of our pockets, no threat to the US and you say it’s justified.

$200B could have paid off the entire combined State’s debt. Now THAT would have been justified.

Today’s a great anniversary to mark another invasion:

Sep 1 1939

Hitler reluctantly invades Poland, but only after being provoked by warmongering Poles. The previous night, a Polish commando team shot their way into a German radio station in the border town of Gleiwitz, and broadcasted a radical call to arms against the peaceloving people of Germany. Except that it was all an elaborate sham engineered by Nazi general Reinhard Heydrich, dubbed Operation Canned Goods.

Please take my name off the comments list.You are sending me every response to the main article and it is clogging my mailbox.

Margo says: “If GW gets reelected in Nov, we’re discussing emmigrating to New Zealand.” 
My husband and I have talked seriously of retiring to Australia, and if W gets back in, that option becomes an increasingly safer way to guarantee that we will have something to retire WITH. Watching W loot the treasury and gut the government, I can only wonder—what will be left for my children, my grandchildren? Working until they are 80, making minimum wage, breathing and drinking the pollution of the corporations that feed on their souls? An ugly picture, yes, but one W would never see; by then he’ll have the windows of the White House boarded up and only watch the TV feed from the bunker of his Big Boys’ Clubhouse.

The smug self-righteousness of committed leftists is something to behold. 
In fact, the smug self-righteousness of both sides is something to behold.  I am betting that rabid partisanship is going to be worse this year than we have ever seen. 
Keillor appears to be unaware of the fact that tax cuts normally increase government revenues and increase the share of the tax paid by the wealthy.  Leftist are reflexively, thoughtlessly, against tax cuts and “rich people”.  The fact that the top 20% of income earners pay 80 % of the income taxes in this country goes unnoticed.
Keillor displays a Michael Moorish level of analysis when he says that Bush started a war in Iraq for his “personal satisfaction”  ( combined, of course, with the obligatory reference to Halliburton ).  And his sentence attacking the patriotism of Ronald Reagan was equally pathetic.  I don’t know if anybody ever loved this country more than Reagan.

Springtime,  I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind about the war on Iraq, I’m just expressing my opinion.  Therefore, proof is not required.  The only “proof” I have is what’s in my heart, and that’s awful hard to put down on paper.

Dan,

Thanks for the lesson, I thought fascist was just somebody I didn’t like!  Sarcasm aside, I took your advice and looked it up.  Let me tell you the Webster definition of fascism:

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

Hmm, nothing about corporate/industrial interests running state affairs.  It is you who is using the word to mean somebody you don’t like.

You are blind Truth. Blind to the real truth about yourself.

(1) Do you support the gays rights to be married?
The comparison to the Nazi’s was to show how the good people of Germany were led like sheep to what happened. They too thought they were on the right side.

(2)Narrow mindedness? Your just another regular person who says he supports many good things and then supports the party that doesn’t. (Read-“What’s the Matter With Kansas”). The republican party used to stand for some good things but you are now being hood winked.

(3) I am a vet dude. I didn’t have an excuse not to serve. Get your ass in gear and go over to Iraq or some other war zone and volunteer or find some of your friends and get them to sign up and support the war. Keep it up cause they are going to be needing many more if this party stays in control of things. Good Christian.

(4)If you support the repubs you are supporting anti abortion. That is their end game dude. Hide behind any words you like. It’s so easy for you to decide for others. This is another put your money where your mouth is. Support no abortions, then adopt that baby.

(5)See #4

(6)Anti gay amendment to the US Constitution. Patriot act. We’re just getting started.

(7) Wow what the hell is that about Truby? I can see a lot of racism in that comment. Just take a look around and you will see the new slavery being present all over this country in the form of the minimum wage. It’s so easy to criticize when you have a safe place to hide. Make them have those babies and then expect them to live on minimum wage. Wow such compassion from you.

I don’t know you true. But I do know your kind. All of what I say comes from my heart. In my heart I know right from wrong and the republican party is heading us down the wrong road.
Garrison is right and he is a smart man. At least you got half of that correct. What Garrison says is fact. Yes there can be just one right to a problem. So sorry.

If you are a Christian then why don’t you study what Jesus had to say. Try not to just pick and choose. I find that most or many Christians want to have their cake and eat it to. They say the bible say this about this but then ignore what it says about that. If you are a Christian then you cannot support the war. You cannot support the republicans many anti-Christian positions.

If your party would be the way it says it is I would be more inclined to believe them. But alas they talk the talk but don’t walk the walk.
Your president took us to a war without just cause, real people have died not just numbers on a paper. Our deficit is sky-rocketing and our children are going too have to pay for it. Your party wants to use the constitution to take away rights from our citizens. Your party doesn’t want to protect our great environment.
We can spend billions on an unjust war but welfare is bad and helping our own citizens is not possible. Taking better care of our country is not possible.
Yes Jesus would be so proud of all of you.
So get behind that truth dude.

Is the world a safer place since invading Iraq.I highly doubt it. How many people died in the last week do to terrorism? To many! Invading Iraq was not justified. I can think of a couple of other countries who really are producing WMDs. Are we going to invade them while leaving Iraq unfinished (like Afghanistan). By the way what was so special about Iraq?

To Truth IV—

Well, you’re up early this morning. Did the kegger not materialize last night because you and the brothers couldn’t sit still for the convention’s pro-choice speakers (including Laura Bush) who continue to run away from the Republiban platform? Or was Neal Young right when he said “rust(y logic) never sleeps”?

It is odd (and a bit sad) that you don’t think enough of yourself to use your own name, nor enough of your moniker (truth, indeed—look up “hubris” in the dictionary) to use the same one throughout this thread. Now you’re Truth IV (seems like a never-ending series of bad Stallone movies). And what does IV stand for—Inanely Vacuous, Inarticulate (but unbearingly) Virtuous, IntraVenous?   

If you have time today, read your Party’s platform. Very vocal and influential members of your Party want to ban all abortions—not just late-term ones (which occur so infrequently that the overwhelming majority of OB/GYNs in this country, when polled, say they’re unaware that even one partial-birth procedure has ever occurred in their hospitals).  To her credit, Laura Bush is pro-choice, but we won’t be electing her and she has no role in appointing the next Supreme Court judges. That role will fall to whomever is controlling Bush’s brain after all restraints imposed by him having to face the electorate again have been lifted. Most of us (including former moderate Republicans) really do fear that “we ain’t seen nuthin’ yet”. 

As far as “gay marriage” goes, why do the Republibans waste our time focusing on such issues? You folks seem always to be preoccupied with controlling who’s fiddling whom while Rome is burning all around us. As far as the sanctity of marriage, I agree with an earlier writer who said that—if you are really so concerned—you should push a constitutional amendment to ban divorce and impose the death penalty on adulterers. That would work better than term limits for cleaning out the Congress (and our state legislatures too). But then, who would we have left to run the country—priests and Heaven’s Gate cultists?

By the way, as a happy (and spiritually fit) ex-Catholic, I am a lot more worried about the Vatican’s influence on our body politic today with Duh-bya in the White House than I ever was with Kennedy. Defend the separation of church and state—defeat Bush.

There is a sadness in me; I fear the evildoers now in office will sleaze power again. I fear this evil will not goaway untill the true Father of men comes back and does away with it. The future is bleak, empty, consumed by those who would have more than others. America has been done in by lies, greeed, and evil of very deceptive practice. I will vote: will my vote matter?

“The concept of an open society is based on the recognition that people act on the basis of imperfect knowledge and nobody is in possession of the ultimate truth.”

www.soros.org

JIM, your assertion that there can be but one truth is the largest fallacy known to man.  It what creates the kind of hate that you eschew.  Are truly incapable of comprhending that there can be two distinct, diametrically opposed, yet equally true concepts?

When is the last time, JIM, that you volunteered your time—not just your words—to help the poor or disavantaged? I do it every week, without fail.

JIM…every heard of an automatic 7-year medical DQ?  The last time I checked, the military telling you that you cannot serve is not an “excuse”

These are my last words to you, JIM, do a little research on the philisophical concept of “duality.’

Here you have the art of dissent for arts’ sake.  Never surrender a point, or even acknowledge that one has been made.  Deflect, diffuse, debase, deny and destroy.  Bury them in false precision, appeals to everything beside the point, and ad hominem abusive.  All opponents elements are to be refuted for concession is a sign of weakness and you must win at all costs.  This dialectic nonsense just consumes itself.  To engage is to lose time.  No one wins these things.

Garrison,

I have become addicted to politics as a result of
My concerns for our Democracy. Your wonderful article is simply the clearest and best written piece on the subject of our threatened Country I’ve read as yet. Please write more. You might consider taking a break from the entertainment business for the next couple of months so that you could work full time to try to get Bush kicked out of the White House.

Thanks very much,

Jim Ferguson

I was sure we would be reading many articles of this nature. It just hasen’t happened. I find that scary! This pinpoints so many things wrong with the mindset of this generation! What has happened to questioning things that appear so wrong? Why are we so fearful? How did we allow such shallow,mean,fearful and yes…deceitful people hoodwink us?  This happened to another country not all that long ago!!! Anyone remember Germany?    Kristin Thomas(SLP/Special Educator)

“The party of Lincoln and Liberty was transmogrified into the party of hairy-backed swamp developers…” That whole paragraph captures perfectly why I am no longer a Republican, and I couldn’t have said it better myself. I voted for Al Gore, and I’ll vote for John Kerry, because, pardon me, I WANT the president of the United States to be articulate, well-travelled, and aware of the world around him (or her!). Please, no more “faith-based economists, fundamentalist bullies with Bibles, Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys…”

You Bush Bashers crack me up!  You act like Kerry is “your man” when, in fact, you would gush over any moron with a D after his name.  You’re so lock-step liberal that you’re blind to the hypocricy that the Democratic party has become.  Go back to France, Garrison.  You fit right in.

The essential problem is that the left can’t get out of their own heads.  They can formulate positions until the cows come home but they’ve got no scientific follow through, no ability to apply their theories to real conditions and accept the results.  If their theory doesn’t work, it just means they didn’t shout loud enough.

Brooks - your comments are truly exasperating and not borne out by the facts. Please look into the following and don’t expect others to always do your thinking for you: environmental law, worker safety law, auto safety requirements, expansion of minority rights. The list is much longer, but I don’t want to overwhelm you. In addition, we are talking about politics and public policy here, not science, which by the way, your buddy Bush undermines at every possible opportunity when the facts don’t agree with his nonsensical world view. “God speaks through me,” indeed!  Gag, gag, gag. I both senses of the word.

Even a cursory look at recent history will show you that the left has no problem getting out of their own heads. The real problem we have is getting the right INTO their heads once in awhile. If you don’t believe me, just listen to Limbaugh (if you don’t already) and consider how proud his followers are to call themselves dittoheads.

Sheesh. How about making a contribution of something other than what you heard on talk radio? And please don’t mistake passionate interest and committment with shouting for the sake of just gassing about nothing. If you read this entire board you’ll see plenty of that on both sides, but you’ll also read the thoughts of many people who have taken the time to try to have a dialog. If you don’t really want to participate, then don’t post for crying out loud.

sound familiar?
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Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist, wrote an article about fascism which appeared in Free Inquiry magazine—a journal of humanist thought. The article is titled ‘Fascism Anyone?’, by Laurence Britt, and appears in Free Inquiry’s Spring 2003 issue on page 20.

Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of:
* Hitler (Germany)
** Mussolini (Italy)
*** Franco (Spain)
**** Suharto (Indonesia)
***** Pinochet (Chile)

He found the regimes had 14 things in common, and he calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism—Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights—

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need”. The people tend to ‘look the other way’ or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause—The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military—Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected.

Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism—The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media—Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or through sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in wartime, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security—Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined—

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected—The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed—Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts—Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free _expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment—Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties, in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption—Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions, and who use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections—Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against (or even the assassination of) opposition candidates, the use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and the manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

I am a Christian who is sad over what is happening to our country. There was a time that Republicans were respectful. There was integrity. There was a time when I was proud to vote Republican. Now we hear more and more hateful rhetoric. An example are the words of Mike Gilmore (see his comments below) coming from the party that once stood up for equality and justice.  This kind of rhetoric is thoughless and hateful. Mr. Gilmore cannot defend anything that he has said. The words resemble the tantrum of a child. Now so many Republicans have become Newt Gingrich/TomDeLay style Republicans. The tantrums and reasoning of children. This is not a time for children, it is a time for courageous and responsible adults. Adults with open minds who think.

So many in the Republican party appear as robots. Truly many in the party seem to be the ones who are in “lock-step”. Their actions are thoughtless and rude. Yet, they call themselves Christian. I do not see humility or love. They are as “sounding brass, a tinkling cymbal, yet they have not love”. There appears to be little love and less caring. They seem to love only their own, and hate their “enemies”. I am beginning to believe that their enemies are not so much the Iranians, French or terrorists. Their enemies are the majority of Americans.

“We should take over their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity” - quote from Ann Coulter, conservative columnist. If there is Christian love in this statement, I fail to find it.

When we meet Christ we will all have to answer for our sinfulness. I fear for the souls of these poor people. They do not live what Christ taught. Words are cheap. Christ said that we would know his followers by the fruit that they bear. By our actions! Many in the Republican party deny the very principles of Christian behavior, while they cloak themselves in “Christian” rhetoric. I am sorry but I do not see Christ in their actions. The results of many of their actions are even worse.

Today I will say a prayer for Mr. Gilmore and the Republican Party.  These poor folk are our brothers and sisters and need our prayers.

When we see atheists, agnostics and non-Christians entering the Kingdom of God before many who called themselves Christians, we will understand why. They lived Christ’s teachings!

May God have mercy on us. May He have mercy on our nation. May God protect us from Fascism.

I thank Mr. Keillor for his honesty and courage.

Gary M Cole, Seattle, WA

Mr Gilmore’s comments:
“You Bush Bashers crack me up!  You act like Kerry is “your man” when, in fact, you would gush over any moron with a D after his name.  You’re so lock-step liberal that you’re blind to the hypocricy that the Democratic party has become.  Go back to France, Garrison.  You fit right in.”

Posted by Mike Gilmore on September 1, 2004 at 10:42 AM

Also on fascism - google Henry Wallace and look for the article he wrote shortly after he was FDR’s third term VP. Sorry I don’t have the link. He sounded the warning then because, like Ike after him, he saw the danger of the rise of the corporations during and after WWII.

Don’t just link fascism with Hitler and then assume that we are accusing Bush of being Hitler. That’s too simplistic and not what we’re saying. Fascism is not one person, though it requires a figurehead, which in this particular case is…well, draw your own conclusions.

Dear Joanne Roush,

RE:
> don’t expect others to always do your thinking for you

> your buddy

> How about making a contribution of something other than what you heard on talk radio

> don’t post for crying out loud

These are ad hominem abusive mixed with fascist suppression.  Here endeth the lesson.

Very well written and profound.  What I always try to point out to people is that anyone making less than $125,000/yr. and is Republican, is insane! And these modern Christian Coalition Republicans know this and know they can’t win without the middle class, so they have done a very adept job over the years of bullsh*tting them into believing that they are the party with all the Christian morals and patriotism.  They say they want government out of our lives, but they want to dictate who you vote for and how often (Republicans as a rule, are staunch supporters of term limits- by the way- ya ever notice that the big push for term limits has abated since the Republicans took control of congress?), they want to tell women what they can and cannot do with their wombs, they want to tell people who and how in our bedrooms…the hypocrisy goes on and on, as you know all too well.  Good job, Mr. Keillor- I hope your efforts and the efforts of people like Michael Moore will wake America up!

I have a feeling Gary Cole knows what he is talking about. I wonder if Jesus will tell anybody to “****yourself” when he comes to visit.

Garrison Keillor, you have such literary whit, I’ll give you that.  Your effectiveness in the political debate, marginal.  Just like the rhetoric coming from the right, your words only speak to your base while the country screams for another option.  Yet the Bush haters are too afraid to vote Green, even though that is where their position is.  Likewise the conservatives are too afraid to vote libertairian, even though most believe in their platform.

You are all cowards to the great political process our founding fathers gave us.  Hypocrites spouting hatred on both sides but neither side having a shred of decency to elevate the debate. 

Garrison, you are from Minnesota, you have seen that a 3rd party can win elections.  Instead you scream the same mantra right in with the rest of it, from both sides, while your own beloved state has become, *gasp* REPUBLICAN.

It’s time for a real change and neither a democrat or republican will bring that upon us.

Garrison:

This is the best piece of fiction you have ever written. The part about “embittered academics” almost persuaded me that you were trying to be accurate.

What? No mention of Haliburton? We all know that the company name will change to the “Dick Cheney Company” after Bush wins.

Anger and disgust about the sorry state of our nation is something many of us share, but few of us share the formidable writing skills of the estimable Garrison Keillor, who so eloquently articulates his rage.

Brooks - once again, all hat no cattle. Why don’t you compose something with some substance and get back to us later? Far from censoring you, I am encouraging your true participation. We’ll see if you’ve got what it takes whenever you decide to make a real effort.

Bernie, Lyle and Fat Tony - I wrote a too-long post much earlier today and for some reason it didn’t show up. Probably too long, so I’m going to chop it in half. I am having such a great time with you all. What a motley crew we are - smart alecky true-blue liberal, intensely sane Viet Nam vet, good-humored ex-fratboy Republican, and mousy mouthy midwestern domestic goddess! What a great country!

Here’s the first part of my earlier post:

Fat Tony: You’ve done a good job of not getting angry and it’s really good to jam with you. My mother also used to say it takes all kinds and you’d be welcome at my firepit any night. Import or domestic beer? I want you to do me one great favor and go to the RNC web site and read the party platform. It differs greatly from the comforting platitudes offered by the speakers who will be soothing the folks at Madison Square Garden. I am encouraged by the (widely known) fact that the RNC has found it necessary to misrepresent the platform to its thousands of followers in the hall and nationwide. This indicates to me that they know that it does not represent the desires for peace, liberty and justice for all that you and most of your fellow Republicans hold dear.

On this point, I think the Republicans who are so outraged by Keillor’s article have misplaced their anger. If they would do what historians do, and read from original sources, they would find the wool being torn from their eyes. Read Wolfowitz and Perle and their dreams of empire; read Grover Norquist’s dreams of shrinking government by loading it down with unmanageable debt; follow the money trail through Halliburton straight to Cheney’s office; read the platform and see how they are determined to amend the constitution in order to restrict freedoms and effectively cut off debate and decision making on the state and local level in regard to issues of public/private morality. Finally, read about their goals to appoint activist judges to support these new amendments and gut protections offered by the original amendments to the US Constitution: The Bill of Rights. Then you all can reach your own conclusions. If you want to state your opinions it is a good thing to have more than the rants and platitudes of the media pundits on which to base your claims.

Having said that, I want to make sure that I address the objections of the Bush supporters, Nader acolytes, anarchists, revolutionists, and disillusioned Democrats that John Kerry is no better or no different than Bush. You are correct, up to a point. Our system of government is so corrupted at this point, from top to bottom, by the influence of, not money per se, but a certain class of moneyed individuals and groups, that it would be impossible for someone who is not him/herself a ‘player’ to even get into the primary in an effective way. Nader is a perfect example. He has now been forced to prostitute himself by allowing Republicans to turn out their volunteers to get him on the ballot in numerous states. It’s enough to make an idealist weep. And rant.

But the time has come to dry our tears, people. The time has come, finally, for the Boomers to grow up. We’ve made a mess out of things. Our parents lived through the Depression in their youth and laid down their lives by the hundreds of thousands to fight against fascism. The survivors went on to college under the GI Bill, or into factories where they formed and strengthened the unions whose efforts have until recently protected all workers’ rights. They bought homes and tried to give us all the things they didn’t have.

Our generation, sadly, has little to show for our parent’s sacrifices. Our youthful idealism did contribute to ending the war in Viet Nam, the expansion of civil rights for minorities, the disabled, and women, and measures to protect the environment from threats our parents did not foresee. But we didn’t stay in for the long haul. We got comfortable and smug and decided in the 80’s to go for the bucks. What have we produced in the end? Record rates of debt, divorce, juvenile crime/pregnancy/ suicide/despair, the widest gap between the wages of workers and those of management ever seen in the modern world, the widest gap between the rich and poor since the 1920’s, stagnant incomes, a failing health care system, declining water and air quality, global climate change, and deregulation that now permits corporations to dictate the terms of our lives in more ways than you can shake a stick at, an exploding prison population. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now we have been stampeded by fear into chipping away at the founding principles of this nation. If half of us turn out to vote in a given election, it is pronounced a stunning success. Of that, a vocal minority has managed to set the terms of the debate and we waste our time hurling mud at each other instead of at least agreeing that there are real challenges and engaging in thoughtful discussion about how to address them. We allow ourselves to be fed a constant diet of mental junk food, so our brains have become even flabbier than our middle-aged asses.

As my 75-year old father-in-law loves to say: Hard Cheese. This is who we have become. Hundreds of thousands of people have chosen to deal with their cognitive dissonance by taking anti-depressant medications, consuming alcohol in excess, eating themselves into a health crisis, or just tuning into ‘reality TV.’ As if.

Here’s the rest:

Many people on this board see that now we are called to do some very great and hard things. It starts with awareness, indeed self-awareness. There is no substitute for a coherent personal philosophy, whether based on Christian or other religious principles, secular humanism, or whatever. But you’ll never be able to truly stand up for principles if you don’t have any. Take a little time every day and examine your attitudes and actions. Be prepared to be disappointed! That’s part of the deal. It’s like working out – no pain, no gain.

Your leaders are fair game. Once you’ve decided where your line in the sand is, take a look at the connections between their statements and deeds.

It would be lovely if life were all black and white, good and evil, night and day. Alas, we live many hours in twilight, shades of gray, degrees of goodness. Balance is the thing.

I’ve always said that Reagan soothed many of my generation to sleep and to dream. The chronic insomniacs among us have been sounding the alarm for 25 years. Some are wide awake now, some just having that first cup of coffee. Some are still sleeping and some are deep in the REM state. It will always be so.

George Bush talked a good line in 2000. Compassionate conservatism is a great slogan, and could be a good idea if fleshed out with actual commitments to programs and policy. A humble foreign policy sounds great, implying that we will not fulfill the world’s fears of our military might and their suspicions that we dream of a new Roman Empire. And the idea that our president would unite us - healing the partisan wounds inflicted on the republic and culminating in the impeachment of a sitting president for a petty and commonplace lie about a sexual indiscretion – that was a great notion. Has opportunity widened? Are we less divided? Have we improved the world through diplomacy? You decide.

Now I know we’ll come back to John Kerry’s candidacy and we will once again be told that he is no different than Bush, and that he is just as insincere in his promises. There is, of course, some truth in that. Both parties have strived to distinguish themselves in many areas, and to align themselves closely in others in an attempt to attract those undecided voters. While Kerry’s rhetoric has crept steadily to the right, Bush has moved closer to the center over many months of this campaign. If you want to understand what Kerry represents, start with his web site and read what he plans to propose to the people and their representatives. Do the same with Bush. But then you have to dig a little deeper. If you’re persuaded by the Swift Boat ads, for example, then you owe it to yourself to read about the long history of these attacks on Kerry’s military record, read the original documents relating to his service, and then read his entire 1971 statement to the Senate. That will be a good start. In regard to his vote for the authority to use military force in Iraq, read his speech in the Senate when he cast his vote in favor. There are several web sites that discuss his record and accomplishments in the Senate, notably his investigation of BCCI in the late 80’s and early 90’s.

If you are leaning toward Bush, then I recommend you do some reading about his stewardship of Texas as governor, and the aftermath. The effects of policy decision often do not become clear for some time, so it is important to look at the state of Texas and how they’re doing on education, health care, fiscal outcomes, etc. I would also look carefully at the records of those whom Bush has chosen to place in key positions. I personally find it fascinating that he has over 100 convicted felons employed in his administration – men who would be denied the right to vote if they resided in Florida when they committed their crimes. Unless, that is, his brother Jeb elected to give them clemency. Such rich irony!

It is difficult to imagine an American administration more corrupt and morally bankrupt than the one we have now, unless it is the extension of the present regime. I am not going to argue that the left is less hypocritical. I will argue that the hypocrisy of our politicians is an accurate reflection of that of the population at large. However, I know that we are not yet ourselves a nation of criminals who believe that might makes right, that the ‘culture of life’ that Bush talks about does not include those already born, or that corporations should be granted the same rights as individuals with none of the accountability that accompanies those rights. I don’t believe that most Americans support a foreign policy based on the premise that if you’re not with me, you’re against me.

Sorry this post is so long, but there is much that we need to discuss. This seems as good a place as any.

Bernie, great stuff as usual. Your line about donating whatever you’re smoking to a hospice made me laugh three times – that’s how many times I went back to read it. And thanks for mentioning waiting on tables. That’s how I put myself through college in the 70’s without taking on loans. I was good…very good.

And finally, to my new best friend, Lyle. You are one of the most generous souls I’ve had the pleasure to come in contact with in a long time. Figure out a way for you and me and Bernie and a few other invitees like Fat Tony to continue this somewhere online, will you? I was thinking I could set up a spare mailbox with a spam filter to keep out the unserious from both sides – sorry folks, but we just don’t have time for that. No matter which way this election goes, we’re all in for some hard work to pull this country out of the ditch. Right now I fear we’re not only blocking traffic, but we’re distracting the rest of the world from dealing with a lot of nasty stuff that’s cruising past us while we argue about how many medals John Kerry did or did not throw over the fence when he as in his 20’s.

Thanks again, to everybody for participating!

BTW – whatever happened to G van den Bosch? Back in his comfy blog no doubt. Oh well.

All liberals have is the Ad-hominem attack.  How sad.  What a long whiney rant!

Not only is Garrison on-the-money, behind his fiery rhetoric is a clear call to action:  Get out the vote!  It’s not enough to drag yourself to the polling place this November.  Like never before, we must volunteer with groups like MoveOnPAC.org ( http://moveonpac.org/ )in the weeks leading up to the election to ensure that people in our communities get to the polls on voting day.  Now that’s patriotic!

Sexta, Sexta, read all about it.

I do not aeschew hatred. Try your bushit with someone else.

Yes there can be two different points of view that are both right. The key word there is CAN.
Unlike many people I do know that there are not always two rights.

You must read better dude, I did serve in the US ARMY, I was drafted and I went and did my duty. It was your buddy TRUTH who wiggled out. I hope they draft your butt or your offspring and then we’ll see what tune you are playing then. That is unless you have a rich daddy like mr. bush.

Yes, when will the masses of Americans who have voluntarily disenfranchised themselves wake up and realize that their cushy way of life is being dismantled bit by bit?  Hopefully not sometime next year, when they may then wish they had voted Democratic.

hmmm… how will this be interpreted?  Oh well…  Ok, I’m no big fan of folks who say God is telling them how to run the country (but I’ll admit that even that might have been misinterpreted since admiting that there’s a “Higher Power” of some kind was part of GW’s A.A. agreement), and I’m no big fan of folks who continue to go a certain way on contraception and abortion because of a three thousand year old order to be fruitful and multiply that was fine advice in the less resource-strapped day of it’s proclamation… but (here is comes) I am human and I live in the real world using real world day to day technologies, and as such I would have been far quieter after the invasion/liberation if our gas prices had dropped to 10 cents a gallon. 

War is usually done over purely human “we need what they have” reasons, bad and absolutely terrible as war always is at the unit level the big picture of the victor being happy (or less vocally unhappy) if they get the spoils will always be the same.

It was at least part an issue of oil, that was the tiny unnamed glimmer that made the move away from Afganastan and to Iraq a bit more easy to swallow, even though none of us would admit it publicly.  If Clinton was “Wag the Dog” then Bush was “3 Days of the Condor” being lived out right before our eyes.  What can you do, the line was right “When they’re cold they won’t care how, they will just want us to get it”

I don’t want my family to be blown up on in an American supermarket, so active engagement, like the move into Iraq has a small bit of guilty hope to it.  I know the devils of Bush and there are many, including the weakness factor based on what I perceive as an inability to bring home the cheap gas and heating oil. I wonder at this point if he’s learned from that error and won’t let it happen again and I worry if Kerry really has what it takes to make the hard and unpopular decisions to at least try to get the spoils of war if the need for them, whatever they are, becomes absolute.

War is part of reality.  Reasons and tactics are arguable after the dust settles, but only if your personal civilization was the winner. 

Makes me seem like a terrible person.  Maybe I am. But I want my kids to outlive me in a world where they can do so without having to revert to horse and buggy out of necessity or have a Taliban official watching over them ready to hit them for thinking that the Earth does not sit on a giant Turtle’s back (you get the idea).  And if that takes keeping a semi-christian-type in office just till the need for their fanaticism is over, maybe that’s an option to consider. 

I bow out now to read the flames that will probably arise.

;-)

A pathetic ad-hominem attack against people who did nothing more than disagree with the author’s positions.  How dare they hold an opinion contrary to that of Garrison Keillor.

This had about as much truth and honesty to it as does a Rush Limbaugh factoid.

Joanne, Your writing is imbued with a system of premises quite apart from my own.  For you to objectively embrace for the sake of discussion my premises would call into question your worldview, the whole herd and not just a few culls.  You’re not ready.  Your progressive sacred cows feed and entertain you.  Were I to gut them with substantive economics and political theory you would turn ugly again because progressivism really is sacred to you.  You believe in the metaphysics of it. 

In my day they didn’t teach reverence for other people’s taboos.  But you get old and you learn to recognize when someone can learn, apart from the question of whether they might choose to.  In my brief stay here you and the majority voices on this board haven’t shown me a capacity to move beyond vigorous defense of prejudice.  Y’all have far too much respect for your taboos around here.

Now, I know you won’t find anything in this post to sink your teeth into.  But you should, and here’s a clue, it ain’t me.

Brooks - excellent point.  Progressivism for the sake of progressivism is like making Ivory Soap sink because you’re tired of it floating.

Brooks babe, it definitely isn’t you.

Amen brother.

You are guilty of exactly what you charge others are guilty of.
Maybe you should re-think your positions. Humm????
Are you saying substantive economics and political theory is in anyway an answer to what is being done to our country via mr. bush?

Margo—I was intrigued by your comment about moving to New Zealand, because I have had the same thought.  It seems like a beautiful place (having seen it in the Lord of the Rings movies). I have thought that if the blessed American voters truly want another four years of W, then I would like to move to the Southern Hemisphere and out of the fallout pattern.  Then the Christian fundamentalist theocrats can battle it out with the Islamic fundamentalist theocrats, and the devil take the lot of them.  The only trouble is, I doubt that N.Z. would be willing to take a bunch of grouchy political expatriates.

Why do I feel like I’m looking at Rome in the time of Julius Caesar?

Seems to me that Bush crossed the Rubicon in 2000, with the help of the Supreme Court. And like the Romans, we stood there and let him get away with it. I pray that good sense will prevail in November.

Mr. Smith, you make some interesting points. I was not aware that GW was a member of AA, and in fact I think you may be mistaken about that. My understanding is that he joined a prayer group, which is not quite the same thing. I doubt he’s been through the twelve steps.

Very honest of you, almost alone among Bush supporters, to admit that it was “probably” about oil and that you’d have been happier if gas prices had gone down.

It may surprise some of the posters here to hear that we share a concern with security. None of us want to see a repeat of 9/11 or anything remotely like it. Nor do we want a repeat of the domestic terrorist bombing in OK City. The issue between us is what measures should be taken to reduce risk. I think most of the liberal/progressive posters would say that we can do an acceptable job of securing our borders, ports, airlines, chemical plants, nuclear facilities, etc. without rolling back our civil rights. We would also propose that America does not invade another country in order to sieze their resources, if that is what you are suggesting has been done in Iraq. I thought the free marketers had confidence in our ability to buy whatever we need in global markets without resorting to the disruption and displacements caused by armed conflicts. Wasn’t this supposed to be the promise of the global economy?

War seems to be inevitable…so that means we should not continue to employ every means at hand to avoid it? I’m not sure what you’re saying here.

As to the comments of Subjugator, McFarlin, and Brooks - I haven’t seen so much Latin thrown around since they dropped it in the Catholic mass. I hope you guys are as lazy about voting as you are about communicating. No less a celebrity than George W. Bush has admitted he doesn’t read the papers but relies on others to sum up the pertinent information for him. I guess if it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for you.

yea verily yea!

Seven Truths—

Huh?

Is that like saying that “Republicanism for the sake of Republicanism is like telling us that your shit really does smell good (as the speakers at your convention have been trying to do) because you know that all of us (including some of your own members) are tired of the stink”?

I know that there are probably still some die-hard (and even well-meaning) generational Republicans who keep looking for the pony in the steaming piles that you’re laying on them. Unlike your current Republiban leaders, we’re not practicing the ole “bait and switch”—we’re just saying “read your Republiban Party platform.” It’s not a pony ride—it’s a mushroom farm. And, by now, you Republibans certainly know how to grow good mushrooms among the overly fearful electorate—you feed them lots of sweet-smelling shit and you keep them in the dark.

Its really very, simple. Kerry and Bush will kill, maim and destroy for the extreme capitalists who control them. Each will do this in his own party’s style. There are no real “bones” of consequence to throw any “regular folks” nor to buy-off our enemies around the world because the country is broke. We have no real influence anymore –except militarily– and its obvious that won’t work either. 

So lament, write, protest, or scream at Nader supporters for not joining your losing propositon of more killing, maiming, destruction and the looting of others treasures. There will be no returning to the old days of either party. Its over. Its a fatalistic attitude, just a realistic one.

As for those who are leaving for other lands, good for you. Its no different than moving-out of a bad neighborhood, city or state. No differerent at all.  (I’m doing the same) There is little to stay for and certainly less to fight for. “Coward(s)”? Hardly.  Just looking for a better place to live…outta the fray. Its a big planet with lots of room.

Let “them” have it.

...make that “It’s NOT a fatalistic attitude”  (sorry for the typo!)

Joanne, Thank you.  I’d heard on the street that A.A. was involved and that was part of the faith-based background.  Thanks for clearing it up ... and making it even scarier.  There’s still time though, maybe his youngun’ will help the faith-based aspect of the campaign by doing N.A. and cutting public service spots telling how much it helped them ;-)

Fact of the matter is, I’m really not a Bush supporter.  He is brainless in certain things that are very important to me, like the ramifications of outsourcing software technology which, in the case of financial and medical software development is perfect “terrorist disruption ammmunition” ... and it’s frustrating that he and his will never understand that software and shoes are not the same thing, since he admits that he still has some trouble operating a cellphone. 

But I guess there are a lot of people who don’t quite understand what computer software really is, so what can you do but hope for the best.  I liked Kerry’s play on it… make it more costly to outsource, other countries do that with their industries.  What the heck.

BUT I’m not a flag waving Kerry supporter either. I think he’s coming across soft and whiney.  I don’t think that America should have to wait for the EU to give us approval for our national interests.  And if I lived in Canada or Belgium or anywhere else I would feel exactly the same way about My Country.

I’m the dreaded person on the fence.  I don’t have faith in the absolute of either party and I’m trying to figure out which of them has the potential to do more (and less) damage.

Forums like this, even if they end up way way way off of the original target are my place to see what’s what.

I’d like to pick parts from both and assemble a candidate that maybe I can trust at least a little bit.  But since GW’s the current guy and he has a thing against bio-science I guess that’ll have to wait ... until he needs a couple of kidneys and he can only get them grown for him in Britain :)

Thank you Garrison Keillor.  May your words reach the ears of many and your message strike a chord with all.

“Entertainers should keep their views to themselves.”  That is, unless they are Sen. George Murphy, John Wayne, Fred Grandy, and Arnold Schwarzenegger. And more recently, that large-hearted fellow who helped lower salaries on Broadway so only the well-to-do can afford to work there—Ron Silver.  Silver’s familiar excuse—investment stimulus.

Another big mistake the progressives inherited from their twin gods of Marx and Keynes is the tendency to view everything through the lens of economics.  Of all the vast panoply of human motivations, the only one that matters to the good leftist is economics.  They shoehorn every effect in the world into an economic cause.  Panaceas are real handy that way. 

Of course you’ve also got the “purpose of history” weighing like a boat anchor around the left’s necks.  This little gem of progressive enlightenment has caused no end of mischief in the world though it has every bit as much support in reality as Arafat’s 72 virgins patiently awaiting his long overdue martyrdom.  It’s pretty easy to tell people where they went wrong when you already know where they ought to be eh.  Foresight is 20/20 for the good leftist.  The right will only go that far in hindsight.

And what a poor lot of victims we have here.  Victims of Bush, of the Supreme Court, of big polluting corporations, victims of a stingy welfare state, of war mongering politicians, poor, poor, pitiful victims on the left.  And on the right, blithely stupid dolts who won’t see any of it, dolts who only want the planet and everyone on it to die for their bottom line.  Yep.  You guys have it all figured out all right.

Thank you for speaking out - in your own inimitable, humorous way.  And thanks for the Dante reference.  I admit to a certain shyness in expressing my views - and, yes, a fear of being accosted by some radical.  No more. 

This election is all you so well said.  Since the July convention, I have been wearing a Kerry/Edwards button everywhere I go - just a button on my shirt or clasped on my purse.  I am amazed at how many strangers (and regulars such as clerks in stores, doctors, postmen) have said how much they like my decoration! 

I also put a similar sticker on my car.  Nothing offensive - just an indication of my position.

I LOVE YOU, Garrison!  Be you scathingly serious or phenomenally facetious, you are always THE GREATEST!  (Love those Republican sketches you do on radio!)

I keep telling myself that Good and Right have got to prevail because God will not have it any other way; yet in these times it all seems so very hopeless.  It is totally scary the way the right-wingers have appropriated the talk-radio medium unto themselves.  One can scarcely find a sane voice in that genre anymore - you and PBS being the rare exception.

KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT;  WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE THIS ONE!

May God bless and keep you!

NOTE FOR GARY M. COLE OF SEATTLE:

Your posting is a precise expression of my sentiments!  God bless!

this is not true at all
though i respect your language it seems as if you are not reaserched. the moderate in the GOP is not gone, just last night at the RNC the party had the gov-a-nator speak, a very pro-choice moderate, to this great party. before that we had the formar mayor of new york and john mccain all moderates in this party. it is the left wing who does not except the moderates and that only alows a pro life speaker to speak at the rebublican nation convention. i beleve that the party of linclon should be proud that they can dissagre on some issues but still remain in the tent of the rebublican party.
this is not the party of the swamp developers but of the hard working people in america who have a voice for something not hypocritical like saying they want peace and then provoking people to anger just to make themselves feel suprime. but insted they cry for justice and freedom in the nations as well as america. they understand that violance is the last result and after 10 years of refusal to allow diplomatic measures to take place it is time for action not indecisiveness. i thank you for your opinion but i do dissagree with it it is the same regergatated argument that we hate bush and all we can do to stop it is put ANYONE ELSE in his place… wow way to be decisive.
thank you for the fourm

Finding a huge list of messages to wade through, I have just ‘stepped away’ from the list. As I go, a few things seem to be obvious.

The Democratic Party is too political. I didn’t get to vote for McGovern, I didn’t get to vote for Bradley, I didn’t get to vote for Kucinich. Instead, I am left to vote against. Vote against Bush… vote against another Bush.

The Republican Party is full of pricks. I have definite Republican tendencies… really I do… but the people who end up being nominated are just not acceptable. I didn’t get to vote for McCain. Sigh.

It is obvious that this Party thing isn’t working. On the other hand, I doubt if we could get everyone to boycott the parties. (Wouldn’t that be something?) The only thing left is a grassroots mobilization that povides the “non-Party” alternative (maybe that’s what the Reform Party was for?).

I’m not pomising anything, but if you want to token a bit of support for an alternative, feel free to send contact infomation to mailto:info@www.dubya.info. Nominations for Local, State and Federal representatives of the “non-Party” are also welcome. If it looks like this sort of thing might be popular, I might be pursuaded to turn it into a serious thing.

Kurt

... oh!  ... and my write-in vote for John Haglin got screwed up by a faulty voting booth… in Virginia, no less.

As Canadian, it is difficult to understand why the good and fine people of the United States haven’t “Stormed the Bastille”.

Garrison Keillor’s article is a clarion call for all to take charge and make the changes the rest of the world will understand and respect.

Brooks, I am no more wedded to my world view than you and at least I can express it clearly and in personal terms. I am also able to ask a question and listen to an answer, as well as pose my own just so I can stroke my ego by providing a clever answer. Row, row, row your boat.

If you’re looking for a victim mentality, read all the whining about Christians being persucuted by the left, or robbed by taxes. Utter unadulterated nonsense. I’ve said it several times and I’ll say it again, there’s plenty of (insert insulting accusation here) on all sides on this board. Why not just accept it and try to make your point if you have one?

Robert, you are a peach. There are millions of people who’d like to pick and choose and assemble a dream candidate. Alas, we only have these limited choices. Such is life.

I join Bernie Ellis in asking you to read the party platforms, but also to consider some other information that is widely available. You can skip the TV commercials and locate primary documentary evidence on the records, accomplishments, successes and failures of both candidates. I am confident that when you have spent, oh, maybe 20 or 30 hours reading and absorbing this you will be able to make a choice you can live with. Hopefully it will be a choice we can all live with. You sound like a decent, good-hearted person and I have confidence that you’ll make the effort, knowing what is at stake in this election.

As to the rest of you Nattering Nabobs of Negativity (if you were an adult when that term was coined, you’ll get the irony)...damn. I’m strugging here with politeness. On the one hand I want to do a Cheney on you. On the other hand I want to extend my hand to you and invite you to join the vox populi. And that’s all the Latin you’ll hear from me.

Previously submitted

When asked, longtime Republican CNN conservative commentator and writer Tucker Carlson has implied he will not vote for the re-election of George Bush II.  Like many others in politics-related careers, he simply says, “The war was a major mistake.”  Let’s speak the whole truth FOR him—trusting yet another Bush with our domestic and international well-being was a mistake.

  Listening to CNN’s biography of Vice President Cheney, I was startled to realize that the only one of our top two leaders and their wives who hasn’t been in trouble with the law or investigated by the police is Lynn Cheney.  Vice President Cheney was twice charged with drunk driving and later with other offenses CNN did not specify. The GOP has a history of choosing grateful men with poor records as their puppets.

Cheney too was eventally a ‘C’ student who, out of his depth, left Yale, though Lynn’s conservative father was pickng up the tab. He’d been aimless and trouble-prone even after he’d met his main chance, the well-connected Lynn who had a yen for the vapid high school football player. 

  So when Keillor calls these folks miscreants, it’s not rhetoric.  Chilling, huh?

Spreading capitalisim to Iraq is a big part of how the RNC attempted to get the oil…the war has been a huge mistake for our country.  The RNC website even stated we need to keep the emphasis on Bus and the war to win!

Very well written. Exact.  Consice.

Even if Bush loses the election, this country will still be teetering on the edge of the abyss. There’ll still still be a media that leans to the right, GOP in control of both houses, and we’ll still be in Iraq. There will still be no reform of the campaign laws. There is so much that needs to be done.

As always with Keillor, I just love to hear him talk.  Too bad he didn’t take the opportunity to be somewhat balanced, and to refuse the cheap tricks—like twice implying that the security shortcomings which led to 9-11 can all be laid at the door of George Bush.  When someone tries to sell me that particular barrel of hogwash, I’m immediately suspicious and I start to tune them out, because they must think I’m a dummy.  9-11 was in the planning for years, throughout the Clinton administration, and the only reason Mr. Clinton doesn’t ever get any blame is because al-Qaeda’s test run—the earlier WTC bombing—didn’t kill many people.  Give me a break.

Intelligent people who truly are undecided want to hear reasoned, thoughtful commentary—Nicholas Kristof comes to mind.  Rantings and ravings, whether they’re written beautifully by Keillor or mangled by some caller to Rush Limbaugh, are only beneficial to those who’ve already made up their minds and for some reason want to be whipped into a frenzy.

There are plenty of things I don’t like about this administration.  But when I listen to supposedly intelligent people who can’t find even one thing it’s done right, when I look at little mini-terrorist protestors disrupting New York City and a convention which has every right to attend to its business, just as the Democratic one did, because they think their opinion is so important that they’re justified in breaking the law, damaging private property, assaulting policemen and inconveniencing thousands of lives, I find I’m not too keen on supporting a party that seems to operate on emotion and little else.

Kerry supporters would make a lot more headway with me if they had more specifics to back up their sweeping accusations, and if they didn’t come off as rage-crazed loonies.

Look, I cringe just as much as the next guy when Bush opens his mouth to speak.  As a good republican, you think I’m looking forward to Thursday night?  Hell no.  The convention should have shut down after Guilliani’s speech.  Rudy echoed the only ideas really worth a public forum this summer.  He addressed whether western civ moves forward or backward from this point in time.  Everything else is gingerbread, background noise, the stuff that clerks can work out.

As I see it, motivations matter more than anything else because we, all of us, are self-determined.  We’re not genetically determined, not economically determined, nor socially determined.  Our choices determine us.  Period.

So it greatly matters when people are motivated over fatuous cause & effect, over mistaken processes, over impossibilities, imponderables and over unreasonable expectations.  Enter left v. right politics and our modern bastard democracy, spawn of an 18th century republic and a 20th century progressive state.  Under these conditions, many in our country have lost their feedback loops; have become detached from the consequences they initiate.  This is an extremely dangerous condition for them and for all the third parties randomly affected by these disconnected actors. 

Keillor’s piece that began this thread is a beautiful work of fiction like much of his work.  It’s also a rant and it’s emotive and it’s clever.  But could one take a sentence or a paragraph out of it and say of it, here is something I can work with.  Here is something I can apply to solve a problem.  I don’t think so.  It feels good to read it.  It psychically rewards with plenty of emotion and artful construction.  But where’s the payoff?  After all, it’s not offered as fiction or as a dalliance for entertainment.  He’s gone political, and in my view, that entails a duty to actually contribute something tangible, something more than just blowing off steam.  That’s a standard that must survive testing.  Mindless repetition of progressive mantras isn’t persuasive. 

Look at the monstrous government social institutions we built in this country over the last century.  Have they paid off?  Have they solved the problems they were intended to solve.  Not a one can make that claim.  The progressives will tell you, oh we just haven’t got it right yet but we’re working on it, have a little patience.  My patience has run out.  Did you know that since the FDA was initiated back in the first 100 days of the New Deal it has grown to regulate fully 25% of the country’s gross national product?  There’s an elephant in the living room that no one talks about.  The house is full of them. 

We’re under a day-to-day siege by progressive dinosaurs sucking the life out of our country and civilization, and the people who are the angriest, the foot soldiers who take to the streets, don’t even know who the real enemy is.

Peggy—Tell those three FBI agents who were told their information on the terrorist plot (Arab pilots not learning how to land, etc.) was ignored at the top.  And similar CIA agents and Richard Clarke whose warnings went unheeded.

I’m not convinced the President’s hesitancy on hearing of the attack was all that meaningful (He’s a slow guy), but that facial expression—shocked at the scale of the attack but not totally surprised?

You hate that people imply the President did NOTHING good?  With a misbegotten and self-serving 300 billion dollar (and more to come) war. the inciting of millions of Muslims, the resulting loss of respect throughout the world, the misleading of Americans about drug legislation, tax cuts for the wealthy, and numerous bogus domestic programs, we are a bit distracted from those really neat things he did.  Please remind us.

You bleeding-heart liberals will once again hemorrhage to death this coming election.

As an almost-80-year-old with a passel of children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren, I realize this is the most important election ever.

I truly don’t think this country can survive another four years of this administration.  Vote,. vote, vote!!

I think GK’s passionate article has inspired a lot of passion in this thread.  While I agree that our current “cabal” of “leaders” are morally bankrupt, I wouldn’t pass this piece on to voters on the fence.  Demonizing the “leaders” (elected or unelected) of the republican voters may make them only cling that much more to the propaganda espoused by that party.
I cannot hate the family and friends of mine who believe in voting for Bush even if I feel they have been duped and are misguided.
Ever since I have been eligible to vote I have always felt it was only a choice between the lesser of two evils.  But I keep voting so I must have a glimmer of hope despite the seeming worthlessness of it.
After I read “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee”, by Dee Brown, many years ago, I could not see the American government as beacon of liberty ever again. The secrecy of our military powers that be are beholden to no one but itself and its own perpetuation. Naked powermongering and lying, corrupt “leaders” owned by corporate greed and twisted ideology are the enemies of hope for our future.
I like to recommend a book “Ain’t Nobody’s Business If You Do, The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society” by Peter McWilliams (published by Prelude Press 1993) for free thinkers.  I am disgusted at the state of our incarceration system, and I think incarcerating non-violent offenders is itself criminal.
“Freedom” is relative and I can recognize that the “freedom” to engage in political discourse and debate, as in this thread, is sadly not possible for many “citizens” of repressed states.  That does not make us more “free” though if our own potential is confined by comparisons to countries less “free”.  We dream higher or we would possess no passion for the future of this nation. 
I found the list of tell-tale signs of Fascism scarily too descriptive of our own present era of government, just as I found “1984” scarily relevant when I first read it in 1983 and again in 1993. 
Maybe persons and entities who occupy positions of public trust who lie and cheat will reap the rewards of the seeds that they have sown, it is just sad that innocents will also be affected by these breaches of trust.

I used to not like you.

The thing hard Republicans forget, not the moderates (which I used to be), is that our choices in life make a difference in our outcomes, but so does luck.  Luck determines whether we get to jump over 500 other guys to avoid Vietnam, whether we get our asses bailed out when our oil companies fail one after another, whether our dad’s SEC decides we meant no harm when we unloaded our oil stock while we were on the board and knew it was about to drop, luck decides whether we get all kinds of breaks and do-overs and free passes in life, or whether we get nailed the first time we get pissed off for being pulled over DWB. No Black American should ever be angry or impolite.  It’s too dangerous.  Do any of the Republicans writing in here know how grindingly difficult it is to commute between two or three jobs and still be below the poverty line—-and still pay a higher percentage in taxes than many of the lucky successful people whose President pretends to be compassionate?

I LOVE YOU, Garrison!  Be you scathingly serious or phenomenally facetious, you are always THE GREATEST!  (Love those Republican sketches you do on radio!)

I keep telling myself that Right and Good have got to prevail because God will not have it any other way;  yet, in these times, it all seems so very hopeless.  It is totally scary the way the right-wingers have appropriated the talk-radio medium unto themselves. One can scarcely find a sane voice in that genre anymore - you and PBS being the rare exceptions.

KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT;  WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE THIS ONE!

May God bless and keep you!

**************************************************
FOR GARY M. COLE IN SEATTLE:

I agree wholeheartedly with your very astute comments.  God bless!

To read such eloquence makes me weep with anger and despair for the future of this country if Bush remains the puppet at the helm.
If he gets re-elected, I’m making my visit to Australia permanent.

Garrison:

I am a teacher of writing who routinely assigns an essay in which apprentice writers are to vent.  They are permitted any language they are comfortable with.  They understand that the writing is purgative or cathartic.

I will use your piece as a shining example of the power of language to capture the power of rage.  Thank you for writing this.

Nothing infuriates me more than when the Republican party claims Lincoln as their own. Lincoln’s conservatism referred to staying true to the vision of the founding fathers. He remains the greatest American president for one reason: Every political thought he had was rooted in the Declaration of Independence.
Today’s conservatives want to return to the Gilded Age, when the Robber Barons ruled the country. They’ll tell you that “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness” is not in the Constitution.

Where did this bull s___ come from.

Yes, indeed, it is very strange times that we live in.  I can remember my mother having me dressed up for Goldwater in the late 1950’s.  Now she wishes she was in NYC marching in her electric wheelchair protesting the GOP.  I like what one commentator stated on Bill Moyer’s TV show, “extra-chromosome Republicans”.  Has our country gone mad?  I think Europe thinks so . . . so do I.

However, I don’t think that 9/11 would have happened if Clinton hadn’t cut back the military and the CIA, etc.  I guess we will be a third-world nation in 10 years.

Garrison is a “girlie man”.

I can remember marching with my mother as a child for Goldwater in the 1950’s.  Now she wishes that she was in NYC protesting the GOP in her electric wheelchair.

It is a sad state of affairs to plot to reduce America to a third world nation within 10 years.  Perhaps this is the plan.  Nothing makes people more mindless that “preachin’” and waiting for evil around every corner.  A commentator on Bill Moyer’s show called the Bush fanatics, “extra-chromosome” Republicans.

However, I don’t think 9/11 would have happened if Clinton didn’t cut back on the military and the CIA.

Check out “BettyBowers.com”  “Repent and Reload”!  Hallaluya!

I’ve never before been so moved by anyone’s pronunciation of the faith I have held since the 2000 election. I have nightmares of what will occur during a second unchallenged term.  true Christians who are the peacemakers should be on their knees praying for his return to Crawford.

This is a wonderful, enlightening article, followed by all these great comments.  I am a senior citizen, and I find all the TV pictures of the Republican convention very frightening.  All that money and power!  Scarey!  What will become of our country.  I would like to add that I would be much more favorably impressed by the “darling” Bush twins if they would join the Army, or at least the Natonal Guard!

Barbara,

In answer to your observations—3 things:

#1 (about the information FBI agents tried to pass on) no doubt—intelligence got ignored, things got missed, mistakes were made.  We could go back and forth for YEARS with all the the errors that were made in that arena under both Republican and Democratic administrations.  Many of those individual errors that occur have everything to do with bureaucracy, communication, jealousies over turf, etc., and nothing to do with an agenda or a pattern by presidents.  Shall we blame this all on Clinton for not nabbing Osama when he had the chance?  We could, but I guess he did what he thought was best at the time, under the circumstances and with the knowledge he had.  Bush-haters seem willing to extend that kind of latitude to everyone but him.

Don’t forget that while 9-11 got everyone’s attention, Islamism began its battle with us at least as far back as 1979 with the takeover of our embassy in Iran, under a Democratic president.  To try to blame Bush for the antagonism of Muslim fundamentalists is absurd.  Could he have employed a bit more delicacy and diplomacy?  Certainly.  Is he to blame for it?  Of course not.  Anyone who knows their history knows that’s ridiculous.  That was #2.

And #3, if we’re going to try to determine motive, prior knowledge, and character from a facial expression on TV that we think our insight qualifies us to interpret, we’re sillier than I thought.

To all:

As I listen to a truly confused politician in the background (Zell Miller), I thought I’d respond to some of the issues raised in the past few hours on this thread. It is interesting that we keep getting the “grunt and groan” comments about no substantitive discussion of the issues on this thread. All I can say is: we can bring you to a very meaty discussion—which this thread is—but we can’t make you read it (or think about it).
So, to quote one of their neo-con-derthal heros, Bill O’Really, “shut up and read before you whine.” 

I have suggested several times that folks
(regardless of political persuasion) actually look at the party platforms. To make it easier, I am attaching four links: (Link 1) the GOP platform, (Link 2) a New York Times article discussing the GOP platform, (Link 3) The Democratic platform and (Link 4) A New York Times article on the Democratic platform. The reading and review—and the comparisons that you can make with your own bedrock beliefs (some of which even smart alecky liberals (me) and neo-con-derthals (Fat Tony)  agree on—like peace, liberty and justice for all) is yours to perform.   

http://www.gop.com/About/PartyPlatform/Default.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/31/politics/campaign/31platform.html?pagewante ed=1

http://www.dems2004.org/site/pp.asp?c=luI2LaPYG&b=97933

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/26/politics/campaign/26campaign.html?ex=109418 84000&en=a4e992a70ceb106d&ei=5070&hp;
Now to address Brook’s much earlier comment and his challenge to name any government “social” programs that have been worthwhile over the past century. The following list is just a minute’s worth of reflection on that question. My belief is that all of these programs have made meaningful contributions to our individual and collective well-being and to the fulfillment of the American Ideal. So, in no particular order, here are my nominations for worthwhile government programs, most (but not all) of which have functioned during my lifetime:

Civilian Conservation Corps, Works Progress Administration, Tennessee Valley Authority, GI Bill,  interstate highway system, Federal Aviation Administration, Peace Corps, Vista, Job Corps, federally guaranteed student loans, WIC (women, infants and children supplemental food program), Food Stamps, TASC (Treatment Alternatives to Street Crime), COPS (Community-Oriented Policing Program), drug and mental health courts, Centers for Disease Control, National Institutes of Health, Institute of Medicine, Head Start, Small Business Administration, Medicare, Medicaid, Environmental Protection Administration, Food and Drug Administration, Occupational Safety and Health Administration, Title 10, Office of Civil Rights of the USDOJ. I could go on and on, but that’s enough for now.

All of these programs have been worthwhile and I am happy that my tax dollars (and my father’s and grandfather’s) have been used to fund them. These programs were not the exclusive products of the Democratic Party, but they were all the products of a philosophy that our federal government exists to help us address collective problems that either we as individuals or our free market economic system cannot address successfully. 

By the way, Peggy, none of these programs were started by GW Bush, but many have lost support and/or have been sabotaged by his policies. I believe that this fact is not accidental but is based on his bed-rock beliefs that government is not a “good thing”, that it restricts or impedes our fundamental freedoms to act on and satisfy our  
own selfish interests, regardless of the impact on others. And please don’t tell me “No Child Left Behind” is a worthy contribution, since I have a sister, sister-in-law and niece who are starting into another school year having to purchase the basic supplies (including paper and pencil, chalk and erasers) to run their classes out of their own meager salaries. How about a “No Teacher Left to Her Own Devices” program? 

Like many former Republicans (and Democrats), I don’t favor growing government for government’s sake. I am strongly in favor of taxing equitably and spending responsibly—and that political philosophy can raise all boats and effectively address our common problems, while simultaneously reducing the most useless and non-productive expense of our government—paying interest on the national debt. Instead of paying as we go and making prudent and consensual decisions about how we use our tax resources, we have seen what four years of the alternative philosophy has brought us—the “borrow and steal” philosophy which debases the bedrock principles of most lifelong fiscally conservative Republicans I know.

One uncle of mine who fits that description—having never voted for a Democrat in his life—is voting for John Kerry because his view of GW’s record is that he could not successfully manage a hot dog stand, much less a country. And he has bothered to study Kerry’s record enough to know that Kerry has supported fiscal restraint and a balanced budget during his two decade career, sometimes at odds with his Democratic colleagues.

I’ll end on one point. I keep hearing the Republicans complaining about Kerry not running on his record in the Senate. If I were a Bush supporter, I would not want to remind the public that it was John Kerry who brought forth and led the Senate investigations into some of the seamier elements of the Iran-Contra scandal, particularly the wholesale importation of cocaine into our country with the direct support of elements of our military and intelligence assets in order to fund an illegal and deadly war in Central America (and to arm Iran). We still pay the costs of that scandal, in the lives ruined both in the inner cities and the suburbs by an insatiable and unending appetite for cocaine that this President knows about all too well. So in terms of reviewing Kerry’s record, I say “bring it on”. It’s time to remind America who is really to blame for many of the social ills related to serious drug abuse in this country (and it’s not sick people with benign but “illegal smiles” and their cannabis-growing caregivers.)

Joanne, let me know when you’re firing up your firepit and I’ll bring some good hickory wood, fresh tomatoes and pork shoulders for the pit. I would really enjoy having a picnic to honor Garrison and to continue this often civil (though sometimes heated) debate about the present and the future of this country. Just one request: no simple-minded sloganeers, dittoheads or divinely deluded fundamentalist/anonymous whiners allowed. And that’s the Truth. Night, all.

Thank you, Garrison. We must not be timid. We must speak out on the issues involved in this critical election.

I am filled with rage at what has happened in our beloved country in the past three and one-half years. We have gone to war on absolute lies. We have been driven into our bunkers by the preaching of hate and fear from the president and all his cohorts. We have had our civil liberties taken from us. We have been intimidated by pre-emptive attacks on protest. Almost 1,000 of our young people have died and thousands have been permanently maimed so that the president and his cronies can make off with billions in profits and so that right-wing extremists can have their Armageddon.

I find the latter reason the most damning. I am a follower of Jesus who believes in what Jesus taught. He said, “Love your enemies” and “Do good to them that hate you and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you for my sake.” God is not a god of violence. He is a god of love. “Shock and Awe,” “Abu Ghraib,” and all the other terrible things that are being done to human beings in the name of God are wrong. I cannot control the terrible actions of those who would kill Americans, but I can do something about the terrible actions of those who represent me. I can do everything in my power to see that they do not get re-elected.

Hey ho, Bernie! I thought you were gone. Check your email later. I was in the middle of typing almost the same thing when I got a wierd message on my computer to restart, in four languages, and now it is kaput. But I have another computer, so if someone hacked me or sent me a virus, too bad. Nice try. A Girl Scout is always prepared.

Listen folks, even if you’ve already made up your minds, take Bernie’s very astute advice and follow the links he so kindly provided and get to know the candidates. If you’re for Kerry, you’ll be able to have an intelligent discussion of his record. Bernie forgot to mention that Kerry led the investigation into BCCI, the mother of all terrorist financing banks, over ten years ago. He knows his stuff when it comes to terrorism, and knew it when Bush was still doing blow down in Crawford. If you think you might be leaning toward Bush, it’s very important to get at that Republican platform. What you’re seeing at the convention is a huge sham designed to deceive you about the real aims of the party. Also go online and take a look at the Republican party platform for the state of Texas. That will send chills up your spine if you are not a fan of the American version of the Taliban.

Jay Weaver, bless your heart. Like my stepmom, you are a person who is in touch with the world saving side of Christianity. Don’t get mad, darlin’, get out there and talk to your congregation on Sunday, and then get them talking to their friends and family. Each of us is like a pebble dropped in a lake - the rings just keep on spreading. We can make this a better country!