I find siginificant irony in that it appears we will have been successful in accomplishing what Bin Laden couldn't: the establishment of an Islamic theocracy in Iraq. Weeeeee!!! So much for spreading democracy and freedom. Oh, but maybe I'm being too hasty. Maybe instead we'll get a full on civil war, with Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Syrai joining in the fun! We'll call it Lebanon 2.0!
All 43 comments by...
volvillain
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Wolf said:"If you really want to know the answers to the questions you pose above (and it really would behoove you to do so) i would strongly urge you to talk with some people of faith, which i expect you will find is far from a homogenous group. . ." This is a VERY good point wolf raises. The media does a lot of talking about specific Christian groups, such as Pat Robertson's as if that is the only Christian POV. We Christians are not any more homogeneous than the Muslims or the Jews. There are so many sects and sub-sects …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Ah yes, the cluster bomb fiasco. Brightly colored as I recall to aid in speedy clean-up. Kind of backfired because those colors also attract children. As I recall they had similar SNAFUs in Afghanistan because some aid agencies were distributing food packets that were the same color as the bomblets. Kinda caused a lot of deadly confusion.
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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I find it humorous that many Americans have the mentality that we're are the only ones who can be trusted to have nukes because somehow we posess the necessary moral fortitude to act responsibly. Some how I find our historical use of unrestricted bombing, over-seas intervention, etc... rendering any argument about our moral supperiority specious. Of course, I wouldn't expect anything less if the tables were turned and China were the world's sole super power. Even so, I still can't completely shake this feeling that we SHOULD be better than that when much evidence indicates that we are not.
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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One other thing I forgot to mention is that fear or expediency doesn't excuse the killing of De Menezes by British police. Many of the facts as stated by the authorities are in dispute and not only by his relatives. One question I had was whether or not it would be possible for anyone wearing a bomb belt to vault a turn style as easily as the deceased has been described doing. How heavy or encumbering is such a suicide device? Another question I had is what kinds of doors does this open if someone can be more or less sumarily …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Wolf, Muslim extremists did not appear out of thin air. We created them through direct and indirect means. And like Frankenstein's monster, they came back seeking to destroy their creator. Ultimately the trend of escalating violence from the Middle East is a consequence of various failures in U.S. policy from the 2nd world war to the present. We did what we had to do for the sake of short term goals. We had to win the Cold War and we needed strategic partnerships. Regardless of whether or not they were democratic. Regardless of their brutality. All we wanted was people who'd …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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I have one small gripe after re-reading the article: " (Iran is the only large Arab state which not only does not diplomatically recognize Israel, but resolutely denies its right to exist as a state). " Iran is not ethnically Arab. In fact, Arabs are roughly only 3% of the population in Iran. to misterk: So the situation with a nuclear armed Iran stalemated with Israel would more resemble our situation with China. (For more on this, refer to an article by Paul Craig Roberts http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts08112005.html) I agree with wolf's statement about moving towards global disarmament. I doubt that this will …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Speaking of the NPT, it's nice to know that Israel never signed, yet Iran did. What's up with that? Oh, I know, how it works. Anyone says one word about Israel in a way they don't like and outcome the anti-semite accusations. Okay, I'm ready for my punishment. Come and get me Mr. Dershowitz. Thanks for the Kudos MiddleRoad! My dream is to one day be a bad ass copy editor, but now a days it seems like proof reading and research of facts take a back seat when one is too busy pushing an agenda rather than facts!
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Henry B, Unfortunately we have tackled the problem of terrorism as if it is in and of itself the sickness. The reality is that terrorism is merely a symptom of a set of other problems. Of course our conduct of this war on terror has only excacerbated the conditions which spawn suicidal religious zealots, so we have even more global instability to look frward to. Just the kind of world I'd like my daughter to grow up in. Thanks to the clowns on both sides of the aisle that mask their agendas with anemic platitudes and empty talk of freedom, democracy …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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IsThisThingOn- I see the point you are making. I suppose that I could have been more specific in my original post, but I was operating under the possibly misguided notion of trying to be brief and not offer up too rambling a monologue. To be blunt, what I was trying to convey is that when we talk about justice as Americans there is a more definable range than say what Justice might mean for someone from a different culture. At the risk of being pilloried, I'd say that the majority of Americans deplore murder. However, as you rightly point out there …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper- Are you really prepared to pay what it actually costs to be a hegemon? Usually when someone makes the statement that they want US imperialism, they are the last people who want to do anything to support it, other than running their mouths. I guess it is far easier spending other peoples money, killing other peoples kids, etc... Talking tough and being tough are two different things and if you want to put your money where your mouth is, enlist, volunteer, whatever. Another point is that if we wan't to prevent nuclear proliferation, we need to stop threatening to invade …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Hey Matilda, It's nice to see someone else out there that believes that security and peace can be achieved sans armed intervention. The Democratic party is totalitarian, in the sense that a minority center-right cabal controls the money and sets the course. I believe most democrats are more left leaning, but not of the Stalinist vein. Hate to disappoint HenryB and his Bill O'reily talking points, but most grassroot Dems want decent wages, universal health care, envoirnmental protection. They don't want death camps or pogroms. Unless they're the quasi-fascist Senator Libermann, that is. How he can even be called liberal, I …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper- You're right, you didn't say that all muslims were terrorists. my mistake, but I would continue to challenge your assessment that they are fanatical terrorists unable to act rationally. Certainly they adhere to a strict form of Islam and have a strong anti-west bias, but their recent conduct certainly doesn't strike me as being irrational. Quite the contrary if indeed Ahmed Chalabi was their means of getting us embroiled in Iraq. I'd say if that was their gambit, that that would be quite Machiavellian of them, but not crazy. Crazy would be us, taking the bait, hook line and sinker. …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Amen Matilda! Rock on with that last post. Chopper- I don't agree with your conclusions about Iran because if they so much as blink the wrong way, they'll get nuked. The reality is that if Saudis attack us again, Iran gets socked. If Pakistanis attack us, Iran will get socked for it. Whether they're connected to any future attacks or not, if America gets whacked, Iran will pay the price. That's why Hizbollah in Lebanon has been relatively quiet for a few years. Actually, it looks as though Hizbollah is starting to go the way of Seinn Feinn with fielding elected …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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I gotta take umbrage with "IsThisThingOn" saying that the Left wants to destroy America, seeing as I would consider myself leaning left-wards most of the time. I don't want to destroy America. I don't support terrorism. Now my beef with Bush AND Kerry is that their both bought and paid for by the monied interests. I'm not in favor of a government that lights its own fires and then tells the public that it is the only entity capable of fighting the fire while dousing that same said fire with gas even as they're assuring us it is water they're using. …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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IsThisThingOn- Ouch! That hits a nerve! Now, I don't want to seem like I'm getting too red around the gills, but the thrust of your argument, that dems are not always the nice, inclusive, touchy feely guys and gals they portray themselves as has some basis in truth. Nobody is immune to acting like an inconsiderate jerk. Take our buddy Dubya, for example. Why not just diffuse the situation with Mrs. Sheehan and talk to her? Show some real courage and compassion, invite her in for tea, etc... Anyway, I think people who talk about hating all liberals or all conservatives …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Hey Matilda, I agree that there is HUGE difference between crying children and dead children. Maybe isthisthingon doesn't know what's going on over there. Well, a picture is worth a thousand words or so. Just be careful, because this site is graphic and I cried my eyes out. Seriously. All I could think of was imagining how I'd feel if my daughter died and how I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. Even Ann Coulter. http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Matilda-I think I see what you're getting at, but I'd like to clarify, if I may. Are you describing the authoritarian mindset when you mention conservative? Or a scarcity mentality, like there can only be so many winners in the world and I better damn well make sure I'm one of them, no matter what? Oh and believe me, there was never any doubt in my mind that what we have done and are doing in Iraq will have grave consequences. It's human nature really. I just have a hard time understanding how any one could think otherwise. Any one care …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper- Criminal fringe groups cannot really declare a war. It was stupid of us to elevate their act of mass murder to that status. That only served to give Al Qaeda more credibility in the muslim world. Instead we should have done snatch and grabs of top members like what the Israeli's did with Eichman. Not collective punishment, which essentially the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are. Also, if we're serious about lasting peace, we have to get serious with Israel. We have to stop giving them carte blanche when it comes to the peace process. Here's a good read for …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Saudi fixation? I don't believe I've mentioned them, so I don't see how you're connecting me to any comments or allegations that their government was responsible. I don't believe that the Saudi Arabian government had a hand in 9/11. They didn't have anything to gain from it. In fact, we're old buddies with the house of Saud. Go way back. I'd sooner believe the French had a hand in 9/11 then the Saudi government. (Now their citizens, well, different story...) My definition of blow back is huge and vague? I think that the connection is pretty firm. Did we help provide …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper- Here is where things get tricky. I don't believe that government can solve every problem. In fact, the government that governs least, governs best in many ways. I think that there has to be a happy medium between government protection and free enterprise. Instead hat we have is pork fest every year at the legislature and Dubya there ladling out gravy. If you had a choice between spending taxpayer dollars on overseas missions vs. domestic security, what would you pick? Well, we've picked overseas adventures, adventures that are REALLY expensive in terms of human life, energy and money. Adventures that …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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PPS: Well, the snatch and grab didn't have a chance once our administration started blathering about Afghanistan and Al qaeda and blah, blah, blah. The element of surprise is essential and if we had real people in charge, people who weren't spending all their waking moments trying to mint political capital, then we might have had a chance. I guess I don't understand why doing things quietly is such a bad thing.
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Actually, as I have stated numerous times here already, I believe that Muslim terrorists are a symptom of decades of flawed US foreign policy, including a blanket endorsement of Israeli hard line Zionism. So, how are the hardcore Zionists, Christian Millenialists and Fundamentalist Muslims different from one another? They want what they want because GOD told them so. (Guess I didn't get the memo!) In my opinion, they are all dangerous because they can't be reasoned with. Fortunately, they represent a REALLY small minority of their "host" populations. Of course that has never stopped any one from exagerrating a threat to …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Scorp- That's very kind of you to stoop to personal attacks. Did I say something to offend you earlier? Anyway, that was quite a moving piece about how Islam has always been spread by terror and agression and America always champions of the poor and down trodden regardless of race, religion or creed. I know, if it wasn't for us treasonous liberals, America could get on with the noble endeavour of civilizing the rest of the world. Of course your screed did ignore some of the finer points of christian history. Take the biography of this guy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada Quite the sweetheart. …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Scorp- I would appreciate it if you wouldn't respond as though Matilda and I are the same person. She has her own statements. I have mine. Further more, the "off topic" comments would be right at home if you were the stern headmaster and I the cowed and frightened pupil. Fortunately, that is not so. US policy has consistently undermined populist movements not only in the mid-east, but South Asia and South America as well, largely because of concerns that such movements had been infiltrated by the communists. Our support for undemocratic regimes has unfortunately tended to push people of those …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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I'm not advocating caving in to extremists. I'm advocating that we act a little more neighborly towards other countries. That doesn't mean giving stuff away or sitting around a campfire singing songs pretending that we're great buds. That's one of the problems I have with how the foreign policy debate is framed. It presents a false dichotomy of only two courses of action. Getting "tough" or being "soft." Of course tough means bombing or shooting the f**k out of anything that even remotely resembles anything threatening where as being "soft" is throwing open the gates to our country and buying every …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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I checked out "little green footballs" and most of what was there could accurately be described as "bumper sticker" mantality. No real discussions, mostly re-cycled internet jokes. Quips about how Muslims blow up other Muslims and how stupid that is. I mean, it IS stupid, but no more stupid than Christians killing Christians (i.e. Northern Ireland, Eric Rudolph, Tim McVeigh)
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper-This may come as a great suprise to you, but I agree that the Daily Kos is pretty much the mirror image of little green footballs. Heavy on quips, lite on content. (Oh, all this HEAVY thinking is just bummin' me out man!)
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Matilda-I think Scorp is into B&D or something, because in one post he kept mentioning "stay on topic" half a dozen times, trying to "discipline" me. As if he has any say on the format of this debate! Anyway, do you think he and Jeff Gannon are related. :p
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper-Whether or not some one is a terrorist or a freedom fighter is in eye of the beholder, really. I don't believe that Ethan Allen ever deliberately targeted women and children. Regardless, the British would have hanged him as a traitor just the same. I think has was a patriot. Some people think Bin Laden is a patriot. I don't. Who's opinion is right? I don't know what your background is on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, but the matter isn't as black and white as it is being portrayed. It's easy to say "Israelis good, Palestinians bad," but that is simply not …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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P.S. Yes, I meant that Israel's gerrymandering wall is creating Palestinian Ghettos. I still believe that there are alternatives to creating "Bantustans" for the Palestinians. (Why on earth Sharon thinks he can make this work where the white regime in South Africa failed is beyond me.) The US needs to act as an honest broker that considers solutions that would be equitable for BOTH peoples. Of course that would take a lot of courage because of the strong influence hard right Israelis have in Washingon. The gravy train should stop!(In a perfect world all of Palestine would be a single secular …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Chopper- I'm glad that you'll take the time to read the links I've posted. To be perfectly honest, I don't care much for Cockburn's writing or politics. (too evangelical, if you know what I mean) However, there are enough good articles that recurr with some frequency that makes it worth visiting regularly. I also visti the American Conservative website for the same reason. I'll listen to anyone with a well reasoned argument because I want to understand where they're coming from. I might not change my mind, but then agian, I might if the evidence is strong enough. My problem with …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Scorp-I must have short term memory loss or something because I can't recall having obfuscated in any of my posts. Of course, that word is heavily drawn upon and often abused by Rush Limbaugh, the grand craw daddy of right wing cheerleaders. See, I respect Pat Buchanan because he has the nuts to actually DISAGREE with Bush and not rubber stamp his every decree as Limbaugh and other "conservative" pundits have. I don't respect Rush because he was popping pills like they were chicklets whilst excoriating anyone with a drug problem. I'm learning to not respect you because you don't bring …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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IsThisThingOn- I like that idea of having a real forum for discussion a lot. I I'd also like to apologize in advance for wasting precious bandwidth blasting scorp, but I couldn't help myself. I do agree in the main with many of the points brought up by Marilda, SuzieQ, etc... I just think that they could do themselves a little more justice by resisting the impulse to flame. (of course I just did give in to that, but I think that's a rare outburst for me.)
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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I just need to go on the record that I'm a registered independant, not a Democrat. I used to be a Democrat, but gave up because of people like Kerry. "I'll do the same things as Bush, only BETTER!" He didn't win me over. At this time, what I have to contribute is that what seems to happen is that people are SO into their position, so into their message that they are essentially deaf to other people. As you pointed out, there is so much clamor in media, internet included, that no one even gives a moment to listen and …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Liberal raises a good point about that I'd like to comment on. I find it disturbing that an administration would create a special office within the DOD that has almost zero oversight beyond the office of the president. An office that consistently sought to undermine existing mechanisms for the analysis and dissemination of intelligence material. My opinion regarding the Iraq invasion is that it fulfilled several neo-con ambitions. 1) The goal of establishing an irresistable presence in the Mid-east as outlined by the Project for The New American Century 2)Infusing the defense industry and related subcontractors with loads of taxpayer money …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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SusieQ-I don't think you're being entirely fair to ITTO. I don't agree that he is being disruptive. I think he's making a genuine effort to understand where liberals are coming from when they trash the war and president, etc... Talking down to someone isn't a good way to achieve mutal respect and understanding. Do you want to be a divider or a uniter?
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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ITTO- Two things. First, Sirhan Sirhan was Catholic. A lot of people make the assumption that he was Muslim because of his nationality. Nice try, but false. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirhan_Sirhan Secondly, lists of this nature give the appearance of legitamacy without the benefit of cross examination. I might just as easily make a list of US or Israeli crimes that conveniently ignores their historical context or crimes commited by Muslims. Lists can be compiled to support any cause you might wish. Haven't you heard the old expression "figures don't lie but liars can figure?"
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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PS- I want to add that it is, of course, ridiculous to assume that profiling is not a useful investigative tool, but like any tool it can be abused. I don't think that is reasonable in a democracy to restrict non-white people of possibly mid-east descent to searches. Of course I think it is reasonable to put under surveillance anyone acting suspicious. The case of the Brazilian electrician is compelling when you realize how wrong things can go when profiling is abused. That's why prosecuting the war on terror in an intelligent and egalitarian way is so important because you don't …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Hey man, I'm right there with you on the airline lines. I'd rather sit at the airport for two hours then be dead. However,I find the coninuing permutations of the De menezes' case to be somewhat troubling. Here's a link to the BBC's coverage concerning a leak from police internal investigators. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4157892.stm What worries me is the idea that people are so anxious to find a terrorist that they commit a greater crime in their haste to protect us. I'm all for checking some one out, but I draw the line at summary executions. As the article I linked to states, …
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Scorp-Hmmm... I think maybe you tell people your opinions in a way that has the similar abrasive qualities of 20 grit sandpaper. Calling it truth and the only truth, like you own the patent or something on it, is bit of a stretch. My opinion is that a lot of US policy has been machiavellian in nature. (Machiavelli is not considered to be much of an advocate for democracy.) Or maybe another term that someone else profered, realpolitik. Trading expediency for values isn't necessarily a good bargain in the long run. One of the recurring themes with our role in regime …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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What media outlet these days has unbiased coverage? If you find one, let me know. *lol* My personal opinion is that the officers involved were SO focused on finding a terrorist their expectation got the better of them. I don't think they honestly believed they were about to gun down an innocent man. If they did indeed succumb to their expectations and then attempt to alter their events to evade responsibility, then that is certainly a crime of greater magnitude and a criminal idictment levied against them. (I've been following this case a lot because I think it represents the very …
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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Liberal's post reminds of something... How come not one single person has been reprimanded or fired as a result of 9/11? What's up with that? Another BBC article references a picture leaked to them of the deceased electrician and he is wearing a snug jean jacket and jeans. So much for the big jacket story...
Posted to Give Iranian Nukes a Chance
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