Wolf: Why is it just assumed that blacks that vote for blacks are NOT racially motivated (or females voting for females), whereas whites voting for whites IS racially motivated (or males voting for males)? In the case of Black folk, it's not an assumption. Barack Obama did NOT automatically get the Black vote. Hillary was the overwhelming favorite among Black folks when the campaign started. She lost that support through the behavior of her own campaign, and her decision to keep Mark Penn in a central role after his validation of Shaheen's 'drug dealer' smear and Kerrey's 'madrassa' smear. I hope …
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Prometheus 6
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whattheheck: While I think I can understand these as attempts to compensate and encourage the black side of the chasm, I also see it as widening the divide in its exclusion of the those of us on the white side. Sorry...folks got tired of waiting for inclusion, so they made their own. And there are very few Black-oriented organizations that actually exclude white folks. What happens is people see "Black" or "African American" or "Negro" in the name and assume they can't participate (with the notable exception of BET). Historically, Black folks have wanted nothing more than inclusion.
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Is there any doubt what would happen if someone were to start a White Entertainment Television channel? Do you have a complaint that hasn't been made and answered a couple of thousand times? I can watch Bill Cosby, Morgan Freeman or Tiger Woods without being reminded of their skin color. Can you watch them without SEEING their skin color? Can you understand, given all the Black people whose skin tone is pink, that race isn't about skin color? Can you look at Bill Cosby and not know he's Black? OK, so they got tired of waiting, that doesn’t alter the effect. …
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Oh... My only point is that we should NOT designate ANY racial listing which is inherently exclusive by title. Why put any of the ones you list in the name at all? It was the only way Black people knew they could participate in such when the organizations started. Context (particularly historical) helps a lot if you're trying to understand rather than just compel compliance. Books, programs or businesses should be able to stand on their performance alone. Should be. But can they? Their performance varies according to who uses them...audiences are as targeted now as they were in 1850. Not …
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Do you not think it is better to have an NBA rather than a BNBA? I think it's better not to invoke trivialities. But for the record, there were no Black players when the NBA started...and it was not necessary to put "white" in its name to make it so. True or not? As for organizations with Black, African or Afro American or Negro in their names, let's pick a real one, go back to its origin and see if there was any way to know Black people could participate in them without being informed by its name. And let's see …
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Your argument makes my point exactly. A double standard will never breech the racial chasm because favoring either side by injecting black or white will offend the other. Actually, I was answering your question, which was why specify the race in these organizations, since that offends you. And your problem with affirmative action is that it is misunderstood damn near universally. It was implemented to teach white people how not to discriminate. To hire all the Black qualified college graduates that were working as janitors and such. The form it takes now (which, you will note, was designed and implemented by …
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I have had no problem with the black people that I know. However, the burglar he broke into our house, the guy who held up the ATM across from my office and the one who shot a woman a block from there all happened to be black. I carried a gun to work the last few years I was downtown. The people I know by name would not do any of that. So you have to assume every Black person you don't know has the capability to to be criminal? Why not just say that's your problem rather than complain about …
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I see you are a very selective reader — good way to remain prejudiced. Actually, I need...NEED, mind you...to make a point. You seem happier assuming the worst my comments. The point: if you are offended by organizations with the word "black" in their names, even when you can't name a single one that excludes people who are NOT Black, you have cause for reflection and I would be foolish to automatically assume the best. After all, you don't seem to be extending much benefit of the doubt either. (Don’t jump to my equating dogs and blacks.) You obviously mean well. …
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"Harlem Globetrotters" doesn't have Black, Negro or any equivalent in it. Not to mention it's not a social uplift organization...it's a circus. This was absurd for you to even mention. NAACP has always had white members, from its very first day until now. The CBC is a social club...they didn't allow a white guy who represented a Black majority district to join and did allow a Black Republican that represented a white majority district. You can call that divisive if you like. So let's give you one out of three. What bothers me is your assumption that organizations with "Black" etc. …
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What I am saying (if you will refer to my very first comment)— Perhaps the “Race Chasm” will persist as long as individuals on each side continue to exploit and benefit from it. I don't dispute that. What I dispute is also from your first comment. Well, it at least removed those shocking signs. But different isn’t always better. Since that time we’ve seen color added to things like Black Entertainment Channel, The Black Pages, Black Pride, and in plain clothes as Affirmative Action. While I think I can understand these as attempts to compensate and encourage the black side of …
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This is too sweeping a statement. No group is ever unanimous in its beliefs or behavior. They differed in technique but not intent. See, everyone wants a better life. Now, keeping in mind that understanding isn't agreement...do you recognize the government caused damage to Black people by its decisions and actions? And if so, do you think the government should take steps to undo the damage it caused? I will tell you every Black Democrat and most Black Republicans will answer the first question "yes." Can you understand why? And every Black Democrat will also say "yes" to the second question...even …
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Can you suggest another interpretation than that the suggestion that Black people should have no organizations dedicated to undo the damage we’ve absorbed, when the government does nothing due to popular opinion, is tantamount to saying we’re stuck where we are, and should be? Suppose Black people formed Black organizations that never assessed blame. Would that be okay?
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I'm not ignoring all you've written, by the way. I just need this point to be clear. You can even skip the blame question if you like,
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I can't go forward without you answering the question. Can you suggest another interpretation than that the suggestion that Black people should have no organizations dedicated to undo the damage we’ve absorbed, when the government does nothing due to popular opinion, is tantamount to saying we’re stuck where we are, and should be? Because if you can't, there's no point in currying your favor, is there? Whatever explanation you put forth, whatever motivation you offer.
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My answer is to call it something without the label BLACK. There is no reason black people can’t have an organization dedicated to whatever you choose without making it a Black named group or project. What is your problem with my prior reply? To reject something because it has the word Black in it strikes me as absurd. You say it makes white people feel excluded...but suppose you are, by the nature of the issue being addressed? The governent has periodically done a number of things, some good, some not. You seem to chose to ignore any attempts other …
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You are entirely free to reject my report that what you see as the “only alternative” is offensive to a lot of people. After forty plus years in advertising I have a bit of experience on selling both products and ideas... I still believe it would be better to get along with each other than to get even. That is my alternative — take it or leave it. It’s up to you. You don't understand. Nowhere have I discussed "getting even." That you can read what I've written as some effort to "get even" is a problem. You don't even realize …
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“We are not ideal concepts that constantly fall down, we are humans that occasionally reach sublime heights. If there is an alternative, give it to me. Otherwise I must put real events ahead of a theory.” I have repeatedly given you an alternative which is do what you want for whomever you want, but do it without diminishing OR excluding anyone else. Black specifies only one just as the labels in the pre-1964 Civil Rights Act specified White Only and Black Only. You haven't answered my question.
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What was my question? This was my question. Before I go further, can you suggest another interpretation than that the suggestion that Black people should have no organizations dedicated to undo the damage we’ve absorbed, when the government does nothing due to popular opinion, is tantamount to saying we’re stuck where we are, and should be? Where did you answer this? What was your answer? You have not answered my question.
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I have no other answers. I know. I'm not jerking you around. I know your position. It is the mainstream position. I'm not sure whether you refuse to understand me or if you really can't. Maybe if you say, Jeopardy-style, what the question is that you've answered, you'd realize it's not the question I asked. The question you are answering is, "What do I think Black people need to do to close the race chasm?" That is obvious. That is not what I asked. It is very obviously not what I asked. Can you honestly not see that you answered a …
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You apparently will only accept an answer worded in some specific way and ignore all else I have written. No, I just wanted my question answered. That's past tense now. I am still amazed that people can't get over one word. I can't get over that you said it doesn't matter whether or not white folks are welcome as long as it has the word "Black" in the title...that the very idea puts white people off and YOU think the problem is with Black folks and the word "Black."
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I have told you what I think will work better, but you dislike my response and insist it is therefore NOT an answer to your question. It is AN answer, but not your preferred answer. You want me to go along with what you want. You don’t want to give up anything or compromise in any way even if it may accomplish your ultimate goal. All I wanted was my question answered. I said it was a pause, I couldn't go on until I knew if you understood what I was saying. You gave me the answer to a question …
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My answer is objectively based on my 40 years advertising experience of what works better in dealing with a mass market. It also targets white Americans' opinions rather than Black American's conditions. My question is just asking you about an assertion I already made. It is my answer.
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Why do you believe you cannot have organizations dedicated to benefit black people without using the word black? I don't. I just think rejecting an organization for no reason but that it has "Black" or the equivalent in its name, is silly. Do you understand why some people may be put off by Affirmative Action? Sure. The troubles they face in their lives makes them wonder where the hell this privilege is that everyone claims they they have (I'm assuming 'they' are not open racists, have never been in a position to hurt a Black person and has never actually …
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BTW, I get the meaning for your name choice of Prometheous. Instead of trading livers to be fair, it might be better to both eat a bit of crow :-) There's been some reading into the name choice...the most interesting was that it's a take-off on Vonnegut's "Between Time and Timbuktu," because it had a space ship named Prometheus 5. It was actually sort of random. Worked out nicely, though I'm not giving up my guts. Well, I guess at least we finally understand each other’s position. That's all I ever needed. Now, if you could share that understanding with …
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