How to End the War

Yes there needs to be a serious alternative presented to the joint Republicrat/Demoplican (Howard Dean is now on George W Bush’s side) vision of endless occupation in Iraq.

We need to admit that both sides of the single payer political party in the United States are the problem. Forget the Demoplicans, if you’re still waiting for them to “get their act together”. They’ve got it together : they’ve cut a deal with the corporate/pac money machine wherein they don’t even have to win elections anymore, all they have to do is foreclose any alternative to the present regime by taking up all the political room outside the Republicrat party, and they get paid just as though they were a real alternative party.

Wake up, realize that you’ve been betrayed enough, and work for a third way.

Or it will be 2008 and Hillary Clinton will be continuing the Iraqi occupation and doing what she’s told by the powers that be in Greater Israel.

Defending a basic injustice requires a fulltime occupation, in Palestine or in Iraq.

Naomi,

If there is every a terrorist award show you should be the first recipient of the Al Zarqawi Humanitarian award.

You said:
** Some elements of the armed resistance are targeting Iraqi civilians as they pray in Shia mosques—barbaric acts that serve the interests of the Bush administration by feeding the perception that the country is on the brink of civil war and therefore U.S. forces must remain in Iraq.**

Earth to Naomi…your so called armed resistance targeting innocent civilians are what we call terrorists.  If you believe a terrorist that kills Iraqi civilians applying for work or praying serves anybody’s interests except a bunch radical extremists hell bent on killing everybody not just like them, then you are delusional.  I know the “I Hate America Thing” is big with Progressives, but I had no idea it was this extreme.

You fabricate so many points to make your argument that only a small segment of blind followers could rally behind your arguments.  That’s why your movement has no traction.  The same people who could follow this malarkey are the same people who can be convinced to strap on a bomb vest and go kill a group of innocent men, women and children while their leaders stand behind and snicker.

I hope for the good our country, the group you are trying to rally remains small and fractured.

Naomi, you dropped the ball with this one. You may or may not be right about the value of the US opposition adopting a pro-democracy platform in lieu of an anti-war one, but if so, that policy should be directed at restoring the US government, not Iraq’s. Your identification with the insurrection, no matter how you try to clean it up with the non-violent examples, is a built-in suicide machine for any group that adopts it. I have read a lot of your stuff, and you should know better.

Naomi - Thank you for the continued thoughtful expose of this War Without Borders - Against Terrorism. 
You are a favoruie always capable of sincere writing.  I am opposed to the use of the term “Insurgents” to condemn the efforts of those fighting against the occupation of their country.  Would we not do the same?  Another favorite - Juan Cole - always uses the term “guerrillas” in his Informed Comment.
How many innocents will die in this slaughter?

USM,

You’ve got it wrong, it’s “We Love Our Country” and are sick to death of the Republicans lying about every aspect of this “crusade”.  If we ever really meant to build Iraq back up, then why is the reconstruction almost 100% foreigners?  How is that aiding in job creation?  Where’s the 9B dollars from the oil pumped under our jurisdiction?  Where is the over 100M dollars “missing” from unregulated reconstruction efforts?  History will show this to be the biggest boondoggle in US history.

I guess the same people who follow your malarkey are the ones who go to church recruiting events for the military.  When you think about it, when they recruit from mosques to drive out the occupiers, they’re terrorists.  When we recruit from churches to occupy, we’re patriots.  There’s something very wrong with that picture.

And don’t you dare come back talking trash about how unpatriotic I am.  I LOVE this country, and I am madder than heck about all the lies Bush Co. has and is spreading, to the detriment of our people and our economy.  To me, people who blindly defend this farce are the traitors.

Naomi,

Well said.

By the way,U Scare Me,many right-wing posters make the accusation that left-wingers fabricate their arguments.In this case,since you’ve made this accusation,what has Naomi fabricated?

Bombing innocent people, children and woman in citys from billion dollar planes makes you a freedom fighter.
Using a $500 dollar car bomb makes you a vicious terrorist.
Such double standards make the rest of the world laugh at the U$ and it´s citizens who re-elected (supposedly) the neo-nazi, war hungry ignorant texas cow boy/ president.
americans are hated around the world, as they never were before.
Thank you(right wing, fascist, cons, born again christian terrorists) for you stupidity and good luck, you will need lot´s of it.

p.s.
“I hope...the group you are trying to rally remains small and fractured.
this group is about 3- 4 billion strong, made up of the rest of the world.

“u scare me”:

(about the labeling of Iraqi violence perpetrators) If you honestly, without bias, choose to believe that people are not going to defend their country if attacked, then please read a book about it first.  No, not “Treason”, by Ann Coulter, or I Told You So”, by Rush Limbaugh, but one with actual facts in it.  I suggest Howard Zinn’s “People’s History of the United States” followed by something on nationalism, like “People Versus States”, by Tedd Robert Gurr.  Then do some more reading on your own. 

You’ll begin to find out, “u scare me”, that people do not care if it is the lousiest piece-of-crap country they have and if you just saved their ass from a dictator - they will want you out and they will defend their country, no matter what, to the death. Many more books with (facts in them and evidence, too!) like these, “u scare me”, will tell you why.  For our purposes, we only need know the what. 

Put in another way, “u scare me”, our occupation is kind of like this:  if you and your freedom-lovin’ redneck pals came into my home, i would at first be really scared.  Maybe I would thank you, depending on how bad my house was.  Eventually, though, I would fight back - no matter how nice you were to me.  I would kick you out or die tryin’.  Did we not learn this in Vietnam, “u scare me”?  Do you enjoy having half of every tax dollar you pay go to a cause that creates more bin Ladens by the day? 

So go ahead, “u scare me”.  Call them terrorists.  What does a label matter?  We went in, got rid of Saddam, and it’s now time to get out.  This is their way of telling us to get the ‘f’ out.  They will not ever back down until we are gone.  How hard is this to realize?  How much more violence, death, money?  Wouldn’t you want the same thing - no matter how righteous you rednecks think the US is?

Let’s get the hell out of Iraq now, before we go bankrupt.  And before we lose more young men and women to death, dismemberment, and psychological illness.

How to end the war?

Impeach Bush.

testing comment follow-up functionality.

To anyone critical of Naomi Klien,and her observations and opinions,just remember that she went to Iraq and has seen for herself what’s going on over there.If any of you haven’t,then you’re just talking out of your fart factory,and your opinion means squat!

I can’t say it surprises me that public opinion against the invasion of Iraq is mounting, but it also doesn’t surprise me that there hasn’t been mounting public pressure for an end to the occupation.  Many of the Americans who initially supported the invasion did so out of fear and a desire for revenge due to 9/11 (which was exploited by the current administration). 

The passion for blood is intense and short lived.  Once that passion is exhausted, we are left a policy of mass murder that has to rationalized in order for its supporters to live with themselves.  As with Vietnam, the supporters of the invasion are trying to justify our continued oppression of an occupied country on the basis that the situation needs to be “stabilized” and that we can’t “cut and run.”

These concerns represent nothing more than the American people’s refusal to acknowledge that the invasion of Iraq was, and is, wrong.  It seems to me that we are using our military power as a means to avoid suffering the judgment of the world.

In the meantime, we are bankrupting our national resources pursuing a hunt for monsters without end, we are inspring terrorist attacks against our allies and ourselves, and we have allowed our government to diminish our freedoms based on the unfulfilled promise of security.

The U.S. is trapped in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, and on any further fronts they create, by the greed of “our” leaders only.

If “we” weren’t so frightened of losing (sharing) these “franchises” with the Iraqi people and the rest of the world, we could pull out many troops right now. As long as we followed the other suggestions in this article, such as switching from building permanent bases, stealing billions of dollars of oil money, and reconstruction money, to helping with actual reconstruction through advising skilled Iraqis as to what we’ll let them have their own money to build next. Still no electricity, water, phone over most of the country? No plumbing? God damn, people, what do we expect them to tolerate from our lying leaders in the fading name of their ex-dictator and public relations about the unknown freedoms they have never even tasted?

They want their f**king food to continue! Is that too much to ask??

And another thing,I’m sick and tired of listening to the disingenuious macho posturing from the ‘we support Bush cause we’re too scared of the world crowd’.You people are pussies!!So there,na nana nana na!Plbbbbbbt!...Damn,that felt good.  Peace.

I think I know what they are looking for and it’s not what anyone thinks. They are looking for something which they value more than oil! I hope to God they don’t find it!

Want to stop war? Stop funding it:

http://www.taxableincome.net/ read and follw through.

Use consituitional money: Silver and Gold.

libertydollar.org

e-gold.com pecunix.com 1mdc.com goldmoney.com

“How to End the War” is a well-thought-out and insightful prescription of how to achieve democracy.  The only problem is that it should be applied first to our country, then we can advise others to follow our example.  Right now it is a case of “Do as I say, not as I do.”

EXACTLY, One.

I don’t even know where to start, but I guess “The Occupation” is as good as any.

Because ones sees construction equipment fortifying a military base in Iraq doesn’t mean occupation.  What Russia did with the Soviet States is an occupation.  By your definition we occupied Europe and Japan after WW2, when the truth is we stayed long enough to stabilize the governments of these countries and left.  South Korea was invaded by the communist North and we helped drive them back.  The South Korean government asked us to maintain a military presence.  By your definition this would be an occupation. 
Can you point to any statement by anyone in this administration that has said occupation is our goal?  No, you can’t.  The stated goal is to be there long enough to stabilize the government and leave.  You can read tea leaves or read tarot cards and cook up any theory you want, but these are the facts.  Pointing to some conspiracy theorist that wrote a book doesn’t make it true either.

Here is another jewel from Naomi:

**Our anti-war movement must not just be in verbal solidarity but in active and tangible solidarity with the overwhelming majority of Iraqis fighting to end the occupation of their country. We need to take our direction from them.**

The vast majority of Iraqis are against the terrorists.  Remember the elections!! The “Iraqis fighting to end the occupation” are in fact Saddam loyalists and non-Iraqis, led by a top Al Qaeda operative continuing what occurred before the war and that is killing Iraqis who want a stable and free country.  The people Naomi wants you to take direction from are stated enemies of both America and Iraq.  Follow Naomi’s advice and YOU become an enemy of America.  Ever hear of TREASON.

You can hate Bush, religious people, Southerners, Republicans or any other group you choose. You can protest, march and do any number of things to show your opposition and attempt to get a majority of Americans to agree with you.  Following Naomi’s advice and taking “active and tangible solidarity” with stated enemies of our country is a dangerous and destructive path.  And YES, it is unpatriotic.

USM,Naomi was there,you were’nt.you could start by getting a clue.

In Europe,we didn’t try to change them,we stayed long enough to help them after helping to defend them against a FOREIGN power.In Iraq,we are the foreign power.South Korea ASKED US to remain to help them.Did Iraq?USM,you’re comparing apples to oranges,but such is the ‘logic’ that allows Bush and company to keep perpetrating this farce....Just so much macho posturing.

An election where people didn’t even know the names of the candidates or their qualifications until they were at the polling booth.  Where only a portion of the electorate voted, and , where they still don’t have a functioning governing body 5 months later with little hope of them doing so in the near future.  What a joke!

Also, the Sunni’s are allied with Iran, not the USA.  As soon as things get rolling, they’ll kick our butts out and pair up with Tehran.  The Sunnis will pair up with Syria, Egypt and the other Sunni dominated states of the Middle East.  It is a no win situation.

The people that support this war are the traitors.

To return to the actual article under discussion, I think that Naomi Klein is absolutely right in advocating support for the Iraqi resistance. She is dead-on when she says that “Our anti-war movement must not just be in verbal solidarity but in active and tangible solidarity with the overwhelming majority of Iraqis fighting to end the occupation of their country.” We must cripple the American war machine and lend all possible material support to those suffering its wrath. We cannot pick-and-choose what resistance movements to support based on their use of violent tactics. To do so would be to take advantage of our position in the Empire and replicate capitalist inequalities within the global justice movement. 

Klein’s position is in contrast to that of most of the anti-war “movement.” Most ‘liberals’ were against the war, but now think that the US needs to stay to pacify the unrest and create an environment suitable for “democracy.” There are a few obvious problems with this stance:

1) The occupation is the cause of, not solution to the violence.

2) The US is NOT establishing democracy in Iraq and it never will. If the American imperialist agressor stays, it will only be to establish a puppet government (that will enforce IMF agreements and follow Paul Bremer’s Neoliberal edicts, of course.) If it leaves, the country may well end up under a tyranny, but at least it will be an IRAQI tyranny that the Iraqis can one day dispose of. At least an Iraqi tyranny wouldn’t blast depleted uranium around the country, creating radioactive contamination to last for centuries. Iraq is part of a historical pattern of colonialism; the US NEVER allows democratic rule unless in accord with its own imperial interests. Always remember, to further US interests: democracy if possible, dictatorship if necessary. A cursory glance at the history of Latin America, Southeast Asia, and Middle East will show that dictatorship is almost always necessary to satisfy the Empire’s demands.

3) If a government that is even remotely accountable to the Iraqi people is established, it will be under constant pressure from the US to repress Iraqi dissent. It will be forced to repress unions and other resistance to the economic pillage of the country. This is similar to the situation in the Gaza Strip, where an imperialist Israel is forcing the Palestinian Authority to do its dirty work of repressing activism.

4) Although the US gov’t should pay reparations, Iraq doesn’t need us. Iraqis are intelligent, probably more intelligent than most Americans. To maintain that the Iraqis depend on the benevolent aid of a paternal Uncle Sam to establish self-rule and reconstruct the country is to fall into Orientalist, “White Man’s Burden” patterns of thinking that date back to the days of the original European colonialism. Get off your high horse, Westerner, and get the US out of Iraq NOW.

US out of EVERYWHERE!

Whats the truth?,

I wasn’t on Omaha Beach on D Day but I’ve read and seen many accounts of people who were, both German and American.

I didn’t need to be standing on a beach in Indonesia to understand the devastation of a tsunami.

Naomi isn’t the only person that has been to Iraq and written about what they witnessed.

Based on your standards, “you don’t have a clue if you weren’t there”, we can just can our educational system.  Most of what you learn is taught by people who haven’t done it or been there.

Your argument is very weak at best.

U Scare Me:  Actually, the president himself called the occupation of Iraq “the Occupation of Iraq”

and i would remind you that Thomas Jefferson himself said that “dissent is the highest form of patriotism”

and if you think those elections were real then your only fooling yourself

How would you feel if we were invaded for the purpose of bringing “democracy” to america, meanwhile killing over 100K of our people?
you and i and everyone in their right mind would be “insurgents” against the invading forces

BTW - Is our Goverment truely concerned with “democracy”?  The US funded Saddam’s rise into power against Iran and he was just as evil then as he is now

Our Government also continued to fund his government with up to 1 million dollars in “aid” all the way up till a year after Amnesty international reported that he had gassed over 5000 of his Kurdish citizens(men women children elderly) using chemicals that the US gave him during his rise to power

and if we are concerned with democracy, what about china?  Saudi Arabia?  Pakistan?  North Korea?  What about all of the other tyrannical goverments in the world? (some of which we support through funding or helped bring into power)

Margaret,now there’s a fact that no one seems to understand,but I thought that it’s the shiites that are aligned with Iran.Anywho,it would be a cruel irony if we were to build a strong Iraq only to have them join with Iran if and when we invade them.Arabs band together against a common enemy,even if they were fighting amongst themselves.Our fearless leaders don’t seem to understand that,or anything about them.So even if this were a legitimate war,could we win it?A basic strategy of war is to understand your enemy.I guess it’s a reflection of the unbridled arrogance of our fearless leaders and their approach to affairs both foreign and domestic,and why it’s so important that we boot them out of office.Or so it seems to me.

USM,what have you read from people that have been there that counters what Naomi claims she witnessed?As usual,your arguement is long on retoric,and rather short on facts.But don’t feel bad,there’s lots of people just like you.Kind of like lemmings.

few suggestions:
- Iraqi security should be handed over to a multinational arab force, lead by UN.
(according to the polls in Iraq, large majority wants US to leave.)Wouldn’t this be democracy?
- To do this people (especially in countries that have veto-power) should organize and pressure their governments to democratice the UN.

...well, maybe ain’t easy but you can always dream…

As a registered democrat I cannot help but be continually crushed by failure of my party to get it. All you have Ms Klein is an ideological hammer, and all you see are halliburton nails, made by the cato institute whose intention to you is merely to enrich (stockholders, themselves, 401k’s, WHO?)...in short, you have taken the kool aid of Vietnam, and can do nothing else but oppose, and hearing hoofbeats assume zebras parade about somewhere out of sight.

Beneath the new ‘insight’ is the same old same old...oil, Israel, Halliburton. How sad for an opposition. Barely loyal and plainly, outrun by reality.

The bitter truth for you is that like FDR whose moral opposition to germany in the spring of 1941 compelled him to put at risk the men of the US navy in escorting british ships while we were at peace, so today and for similar reasons another president has taken action just as controversial today as that was then. The difference is that that your actions analogize that of America First and the Bund.

This message is brought to you by the FDR HST wing of the democratic party.

USM,
I’ll start with “Occupation” also.  Our army in Post-WWII Europe was called “The Occupational Army.” That can’t get any clearer.  I remember it well, my dad was part of it.  We occupied it and guess what - We’re still there! 

South Korea was occupied first by our military then followed closely by our commercial presence.  Guess what - We’re still there!  So much so, it has become our client state.  Representatives of S. Korean government showed up recently at my son’s funeral in California with a plaque for his widow with a piece of the DMZ on it.  My son worked for our government.  By the way, I’m also a military dependent.

We definitely occupied Japan after WWII.  That was also called the Occupational Forces.  Guess what - We’re still there!  Didn’t you see any old movies like Sayonara?  This pattern has been our MO since WWII.

What are you?  Very young or uneducated or something?  You don’t have a clue as to what the truth is.  On top of that, you are publically arguing against and trying to villify a person/people who has been there and seen what is happening.

My point is:  We NEVER LEAVE!  (unless we’re forced to leave as in Viet Nam) Why don’t you do yourself a favor and look up Occupational Army WWII on Google, the encyclopedia, anywhere.  Enlighten yourself, please.

Bush absolutely will not state how long we intend to stay in Iraq.  Doesn’t that give you a clue?  Iraq is in the beginning stages of a civil war, just as Viet Nam was when we took over occupation (there’s that word again) from the Vichy French.

The unstated goal in Iraq is to get our corporations in there asap and hope their citizens become quickly addicted to capitalism, like we are.  This goal was backed up by bringing in the IMF and World Bank just in case the addiction process was too slow.  Those two organizations will ensure the money gets where it’s supposed to go.  Maybe the corps couldn’t remember what happened when we did the same thing in Iran with the Shah.  Perhaps it was either too long ago to matter or they didn’t believe it applied to Iraq.  Nobody’s accusing these folks of using their brains - they’re too greedy for that.

Just because the Iraqis loved their elections doesn’t mean they also love our occupation any more than your vote or mine means we love everything going on in this country.  Your oversimplifications and sweeping generalizations are dangerous.  ALL Iraqi citizens want the end of our occupation, and only SOME of them are our enemies.  Get it?  All vs some?

By the way you don’t scare me.  I’m hoping for your eventual enlightenment.

Epa, what???Sounds like something out of a mental blender.

So I am curious, was it a good idea to overthrow Saddam? Naomi would you, right now, be in a better place if he were still there?  I know there are a ton of other issues, but I feel it is important to answer that one easy question before you proceed to other things...A simple yes or no would do.

A Terrorist is ‘An Army of One’

----------

The MISSION of the PEACE TRAIN to DC is to deliver a message of PEACE THROUGH CONSERVATION to the WORLD.
http://TantricTravel.com

The MISSION of the Drive 55 Conservation Project is to reduce petroleum consumption by 20%-50%.
http://Drive55.org

Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel:

SUV: 4,591
Air: 4,123
Bus: 3,729
Car: 3,672
Train: 2,138

Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics
http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html

According to a 2004 Transportation Research Board report, public transportation:
* Reduces CO2 emissions by more than 7.4 million tons per year in the U.S.
* Produces 95% less CO, at least 92% fewer VOCs, and nearly half as much CO2 and NOx for every passenger mile traveled than private vehicles

The Mission of The NEW ATHENA PROJECT is to encourage a rational ENERGY POLICY

http://www.fuelandfiber.com/Athena/

Apparently the antiwar Left has forgotton the fact that we were attacked.  America did not start this war, but we will finish it. Try to remember the horror of Sept 11, 2001. New York City.  Washington DC.  World Trade Center. Pentagon. As Pres Bush likes to say “War is want they wanted and war is what they got.” Now we need to go after the other evildoers before they hit us again.  If N. Korea drops a nuke on San Francisco we’ll drop thirty on them. If Iran smuggles a nuke into Boston Harbor we’ll turn Mecca and Medina and Jedda (along with Teheran and any other Islam-city worthy of destruction).

Don’t Be Afraid,

No, Iraq did not attack us.  That is another lie that even Bush and Cheney have stated was a wrong assumption. That being, Sadaam had nothing to do with 9/11.  Please read past articles on this site to become educated on the matter beyond the FOX News soundbite level.

What’s the Truth- Oh, no, ME Bad!  I did mean Shiite with Tehran.  That’s what happens when you’re trying to get the paperwork ready to ink a deal and blog at the same time!  But you got the drift, so I do appeciate you’re catching my hurried mistake.  Thanks.

Margaret, not to belabor the point, but maybe you could you answer my question.  Was it worth it to overthrow Saddam? I know there are more considerations out there, but it is a simple question.  Yes or no....

“When WE identify why WE really went to war . . .”
“. . . but are only able to impose in relative slow motion HERE AT HOME.”
“That means being the resistance OURSELVES IN OUR COUNTRY, demanding that the troops come home, that U.S. corporations come home . . .

Last time I checked (5 minutes ago), Ms. Klein is . . . CANADIAN.  Born in MONTREAL and living in TORONTO.

As a fellow CANADIAN, I would like to appologize for Ms. Klein’s attempt to impose her imperial Canadian liberal ideas on our neighbours to the South.

Message to the US:  Keep up the good work.

Curious,

NO.

Thanks for being honest Margaret.  I am curious, no pun intended, to find out what are the major reasons behind your view that it was not worth it?  Are the people suffering more, economic stability, safety, etc….

Curious

I can not answer for Naomi, but I am not in a better place. 

1600 of my American brothers and sisters are dead. Tens of thousands of Iraqis are dead...if you believe the Johns Hopkins study; as many as 100,000 Iraqis have been KILLED by the American invasion/occupation of the Cradle of Civilization.

We, the American tax paying public are out of pocket in excess of $300,000,000,000.00 dollars. Can you think one or two other things our government could do with 300 BILLION dollars? I can.

Saddam was a real son of a bitch. Bush should know, his daddy and that phucking asshole Raygun and Rumsfeld supported him in the 80’s. Raygun sold him weapons about a week after he actually used WMD against the Kurds.  LOOK IT UP.

Every single bit of evidence shows that these chicken hawks planned the Iraqi invasion long before OSAMA had the SAUDIS’ fly planes into the World Trade Center.
Go to PNAC and read what this scum brigade had planned. Pay special attention to the part where they talk about world domination and the need for a “Pearl Harbor” type attack to institute the policy. LOOK IT UP.

What happened to getting OSAMA… DEAD OR ALIVE?  Saudi

There is an admitted un-accounted $9,000,000,000.00 dollars. LOOK IT UP.
Just today there is another unaccounted $100,000,000.00 dollars. LOOK IT UP.

If you read/watch international news you will certainly see that the Iraqi people are living in squalor.

There is more, but that will be for another day.

Realitybasedbob.  Some interesting points.  I tried to look up the various points you emphatically mentioned to “look up”.  I googled “un-accounted $9,000,000,000.00 dollars” since you left little other direction, and only found two links.  One to a crazy rambling tirade at ballaciao.org, here’s a taste:

“Let us purge alternate worlds and parallel universes from our lands, making extinct the sickness that has plagued us for years. We are the solution, not the problem, and inside each of us is the energy that has been imprisoned inside the dungeons of the human animal”

and another to the “Theos-Talk Archives”, apparently an interesting site with a pentagram background and little coherent discussion.  I tried a similar search for the “unaccounted $100,000,000.00 dollars” and found three links.  One to the Austin Texas city finance site…crazy stuff.

Regardless, I seriously doubt the Iraqi people care to much about purported missing funds on renegade internet sites.  Your comment that “If you read/watch international news you will certainly see that the Iraqi people are living in squalor” struck me as the most interesting.  What exactly do you think they were living with before?  Were they all independently wealthy and vacationing in the Pocono’s?  Or were their daughters being raped and family members falsely imprisoned?  I wonder.

Curious,

Personally, I’d have to say that my tax dollars could have been better spent than on taking out Saddam Hussain and 100,000+ other people and destroying a country.

This is the silliest thing I’ve read all day.  I’ve got to be more careful about the links I follow.  The only thing that really seems to be missing is the smoking gun that Karl Rove and the gang stole the persidential election from Dennis Kucinich in order to maintain control of former Soviet bloc missile silos, which could then be pointed at the dark people of the world. 

Have a nice day, but try a cocktail of Haldol and Moban—it’ll do wonders for your paranoia.

$100m gap’ in US Iraq spending BBC News 5/5/05

US handling of reconstruction has been heavily criticised
US civilian authorities in Iraq have been unable to account properly for nearly $100m (£53m) earmarked for rebuilding, US financial auditors say.
Two audits found signs of potential fraud regarding the money, which includes oil revenue and assets seized from Saddam Hussein’s government.

A third questioned the use of almost $18bn in US taxpayers’ money for reconstruction projects in Iraq.

The audits found “no assurance that fraud, waste and abuse did not occur”.

The US risks fostering a culture of corruption in Iraq

Senator Russ Feingold
Distribution of the funds was first the responsibility of the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority, and later of an organisation managed by the US embassy in Iraq.

The London Times 5/2/05 Blair confirmed factual.
The discussion at 10 Downing St. on July 23, 2002 calls to mind the first meeting of George W. Bush’s National Security Council (NSC) on Jan. 30, 2001, at which the president made it clear that toppling Saddam Hussein sat atop his to-do list, according to then-Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neil, who was there. O’Neil was taken aback that there was no discussion of why it was necessary to “take out” Saddam.  Rather, after CIA Director George Tenet showed a grainy photo of a building in Iraq that he said might be involved in producing chemical or biological agents, the discussion proceeded immediately to which Iraqi targets might be best to bomb.  Again, neither O’Neil nor the other participants asked the obvious questions.  Another NSC meeting two days later included planning for dividing up Iraq’s oil wealth.

This is only the tiniest tip of the iceberg for your skeptics.  Would love to put more, but don’t want to clog site.

Taxpayer, I actually don’t disagree with you on that, sincerely.  I also think that the government shouldn’t be spending:

$200 million for a bridge in Alaska that would serve an island with 50 residents and

$125 million for a bridge in Anchorage, Alaska
(Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (H.R. 3))

Also, $21.8 billion worth of student loans are in default due to fraud at the Department of Education
(http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/bg1840.cfm)

And the worst in my opinion, up to $25 billion in “Unrecociled transactions” in the most recent Treasury report, which means that someone spent it, but they don’t know who or for what. 

So if money is your only issue, these things should rank pretty high as well correct?

Naomi:
Well said, well written, but should be labeled for what it is, fiction. I choose to believe the soldiers in the field and the people that I know for certain have been to Iraq. You America haters consider yourselves to be authorities on everything from diplomacy to how to reconstruct a devastated country, to how to run the oil industry, to how to hold elections, to how to fight the insurgents, wrong, terrorists, to what should be built first, as in your idea that there should be cranes in the center of Bahgdad before there is sufficient security built up.
If you dislaike the United States so much, get out, please, we’d be better off without you and your anti-American attitude.
Veteran.

curious
You should write to your peckerhead president and get one of the new internets. My google search brought up 992,000 links to 9 billion dollars missing in Iraq. The first link was this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/

you might use you new internets to find this...i found it on my AOL news front page...yea aol...what about it?

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050504212709990006

whydoncha get back to me on this C

Margaret, all legitimate news stories that should, and will, be flushed out. I agree.  But we have gotten off of my original question; if you do think that it was wrong to overthrow Saddam, why do think that?  What grounds are you basing that opinion on?  Are the people in Iraq better off?  Why are you personally so against it, it could not be just because of tax money, we all can find billions of that cash that is being mishandled by the gov….Would we all be better off with Saddam in power?

Easy tiger, I was just using the words you gave me, nothing less.  Don’t expect people to know what exactly you want them to “LOOK UP”.  Plus, you don’t even answer the simple question I am asking…Look, I could find billions in government pork that you, me, Nader and everyone else doesn’t agree with.  I don’t think that means a lot to the troops on the ground and the people in Iraq. 

Maybe we should pose the question like this, if you were an Iraqi, what would you want, and why?? Would you be content with no US intervention and a Saddam regime?

Much of this discourse is an unfortunate example of why the democrats lost the white house and lost the hill.

As for any missing money.  If you ever have done business in the Arab world then you know bribery is the order of the business day.  I know this is not a “PC” statement.  And I am not attacking the Arab people as whole.  It is simply a very real and accepted part of their business practice.  If you know any arabs, ask them if there is any trusth the statement.  This is very foreign concpet to us (the US), at least so wide spread and accepted. 

(This last statement will probably bring a hail storm accusing me of naivety.  Of course we have bibery that goes on in the US and certainly Europe, but it pales in comparison to the almost artistic mastery of the institution in the middle east). 

I’m sure the US has spent millions, maybe, billions to grease the rails.  Reconstruction is a big job.  Is this a good thing or a bad thing?  It’s deabtable.

How should the US report this expense on the books? 

A line item for bribery in the budget with a whole lot of zeros in it?  Or report it missing?

Which one is the bigger crime?  I’m not sure.

If my assumption is right, is it helping reconstruction and the future of the Iraqi people?  I hope so.

Never said money was the primary motivation.  I think a couple posts before me pointed out that we have actually killed as many, if not more, innocent civilians than Sadaam did.  Not only that, you overlooked the point that Blair and Bush co-conspired to hoodwink their respective constituents with “tweaked” data.  Go to <oldamericancentury.org> There’s enough data there to prove the point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

We first went to take out Sadaam because he was a “threat”.  We now know that wasn’t true, and that, in fact, so did our administration.  The recent Gallup/USA Today poll shows 57% of Americans now believe we were blatantly lied to, 63% think the war wasn’t worth it.

Then it changed to, bringing Democracy.  Well, a fake election that has yet to yield viable leadership beyond a prime time news photo op is what we gave them. 

We were going to create jobs and help them rebuild.  99% of reconstruction is done by non-Iraqi’s and profits mainly the USA corporate structure.  I am a business owner, but I don’t condone cheating people.

Gross mismanagement is rampant, as shown in my prior post.

The following news article also shows we are being drug into a Vietnam not only in Iraq, but Afghanistan as well.

Asia Times Online (based in India, our ally)
Taliban profit from US largesse
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - The US, content in the belief that all support systems for the Taliban had been withdrawn and their financial lifelines completely dried up - and with moderate Taliban being drawn into the mainstream political fold in Afghanistan - has been shocked by a new phase of fierce Taliban resistance this spring.

The visits of Lieutenant-General David Barno, commander of US troops in Afghanistan, and chief of US Central Command, General John Abizaid, to Islamabad and their insistence that Pakistan restart a powerful campaign against al-Qaeda and the Taliban is the result of a new realization that the Taliban problem is back to square one.

Not only are the Taliban primed in the latest techniques in guerrilla warfare, they have also got their hands on fresh resources - both in terms of personnel and supplies - which the US had believed were choked off.

Everything, EVERYTHING they told us was the basis for this war is and was a lie.  And they weren’t ignorant, just determined.

Go to
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/randirhodes/archives/archive_sound.php

Listen to this interview with Scott Ritter, a retired Marine and former nuclear weapons inspector in Iraq.  More Bush Co. lies.  You have been lied to, as has this whole nation, Curious.

C

In a word, yes

I don’t think there will be a dynamic anti-war movement until there is a draft. THEN, more people will be personally involved. All the reasons to be against the war, of which Naomi is so right-on, are becoming more well-known, but we need more people. And lately I’ve come to think that until there is a draft, it is too easy for people to look the other way.

Curious,

Well, money is certainly one issue, and I would agree with you on the items you mention. 

And of course, another issue is the killing.

TW - you said:  “they will want you out and they will defend their country, no matter what, to the death.”

Then why are the “guerillas” blowing up Shia and Kurds 50 at a clip?  Is this how Iraqis “defend” their country by killing civilians in the MAJORITY groups? Why are you siding with the MINORITY Sunnis and excusing their barbarity anyway?  Is it natural or moral to have a MINORITY group brutally rule the MAJORITY for over 30 years? Were you supporting the MINORITY White Akrikaners against Mandela in South Africa as well?  How very odd....

Margaret - I notice that many on the Left constantly repeat the “Bush Lied” mantra when discussing the war.  Why do you suppose Bush would use WMD as one of his 3 core reasons for regime change (WMD, ME Democracy, Removing Saddam) if he KNEW it was a lie?  If Bush was crafty enough to start a war based on lies, why wouldn’t he plant WMD’s if he KNEW it was a lie?

The problem with the anti-war crowd these days is that they have became so unhinged and their rhetoric has gotten too sloppy that no one can take them seriously anymore.

Larry,

If you love America like I do, you’d work just as hard as getting leaders who care about the people more than the corporations. Never had a problem with the soldiers doing their job, just the CIC. The Iraq War is about OIL and POWER.  I’m sorry that you were lied to and misused.  Thank you for your patriotism.End of statement.

Hmmm, we have the White House, Congress, pretty soon the courts, the military, the military industrial complex, most businesses, and most of the guns.  It really does not matter what you overly emotional Liberals / Socialists / Marxists / Communists say or do, but enjoy your freedom of speech as you must.

Paul,
You do not offer one fact, written or otherwise.  The problem with people who didn’t research their candidate’s record before they blindly voted is that they have only emotions to rely on.  Where’s your proof he didn’t know the truth.  All the documents I provided show otherwise.  Sorry you have to defend your poor choice for Commander in Chief with nothing but rhetoric.

TW:
If there was any logic to your argument, then we would have lost WWII, Germany would still be Nazi, and Japan would still be run by the militarists, instead of both being democracies today.  Of course, if there was any logic behind your argument, then neither Germany nor Japan could have conquered any other nation themselves. Using only Vietnam for comparison is a selective reading of history—good for a cheap point, but unlikely to illuminate anything. 
(BTW, I hope you make an exception for any firefighters who might mistakenly think you would be glad of their assistance, even if it involved coming into your home.  Perhaps their safest course would to be to simply prevent other houses from catching fire and let you deal with getting yourself our alive.)

Margaret, thanks for being civil here, unlike others.  My problem is this:  it is so very easy on either point of view to produce articles, accusations and documents to support your side.  I could point to blogs and sites such as Jihadwatch and Democraticwings to 100% refute your thoughts on Afganistan and Iraq.  In fact, I just need to turn to today’s news to do that:

http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200505050807.asp

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1475994,00.html (aghast!  A UK paper!)

But we both know it is a pointless endeavor.  There will always be papers and blogs and websites that say the complete opposite on this topic.  It is so pointless to direct people to this blather….

What I am interested in is personal thoughts, real people, opinions and views not influenced by Fox News or Move On….

Now, in your heart, if you were an Iraqi, how do you think you would feel?!?!  We are there now, it is a sunk cost, as the accountants would say, so now let’s just think about it….would they be better off if we just left right now???  Don’t dwell on these conspiracy theories cooked up by these sensationalist sites (on both sides) think in terms of the future!

Jah,

Do you think you’re god?  What’s with Jah?  Too much ganga, I guess.

By the way, the Republicans are eliminating democracy and destroying the Constitution, if you haven’t been reading the papers for the last 4 1/2 years.  We have only been trying to retain democracy, but I guess you’re another one of those that want the Libertarian view of chaos.

Taxpayer, I agree again.  What amount of killing can you “justify”.  It is difficult, and only history will tell….

Realitybasedbob, I can only accept your stance on that.  It is more a “macro” disagreement that we will unlikely solve.  But I hope those on both of our sides will figure out a way to work together on issues outside Iraq that we do agree on…

If I were an Iraqi, I would want us out.  I would be very angry that I’d been lied to about creating new jobs, stopping the murder and torture.  Now we fly them to other countries to do so.

It was an unjustified war.  It was a purposeful lie.  I’m sorry that you find the London Times, a very conservative, Blair/Bush-supporting paper, sensationalist.  But it’s all over the press, all over the world, just not here.  Here, we heard about the runaway bride.  What a cover up!

But if you’re persuaded that it is the right thing to do, no fact, even if I brought Jesus Christ in here to tell you himself, would not be enough.  Seeing that you seem to only wish to invalidate any evidence (Conversational Terrorism 101)as “unworthy”, there is no point in continuing our discussion.

However, much has been gained because the non-neocons (trolls) who come on this site can now see firm data provided for my viewpoint, and little to none to justify what we have done.

Curious, there is no flag big enough to cover the blood of the innocents we have murdered in the name of $.

Margaret, indeed, invoking Jesus Christ is probably a good place to stop this discussion.  I would just urge you to continue to read the New York Times, but when it comes to making decisions and taking a stance, use your heart and use your head.  Take yourself out of the box we all live in, the over hyped, over sensationalized media box, and think about what is right, and what (in 10-20 years) would you be proud to support.  I will sign off for now….

I love my country

I am ashamed of my country

Tourtue in Abu Graib, Afganastan, Cuba, rendering (out sourcing) tortue to other counties

It is not a good time here in the home of the free

Curious,

Some would say NO killing is justified.  I take a more moderate viewing.  I think killing in the name of self-defense is justified (which clearly wasn’t the case in Iraq).  I could have easily turned my head and silently assented to an assassination of Saddam Hussain, if that was the true intent of the Iraq invasion (which clearly it wasn’t).  Would have been a hell of lot cheaper too!  I could justify that based on all the people he has killed.

What has REALLY happened is exactly what Naomi speaks of.  This war has nothing to do with Saddam and everything to do with controlling oil, establishing military bases, opening new corporate markets, and taxpayer subsidization of corporate-military-industrial profits.

As advanced as our military is, don’t you think they could have taken out Saddam if that was their sole objective?

Paul,Bush lied to us,period.It’s not a mantra,that’s just a label you use to deny the truth.  Curious,there are a lot of dispicable people in the world that we’d be better off without.Why Saddam?  Larry,if what Naomi says is fiction,could you please elaborate?Or is this just more broad based assertions unbacked by facts?Why are you Bush/war supporters so averse to fact based debate?Is it because your opinions are based more on what you want to believe than on what’s real?Just curious.

I am ashamed of my spelling

amen taxpayer

In case you didn’t notice over the last millenium or so there has always been an empire looking to control the world and its resources might as well be a benevolent American empire in my book. a world organized under our capitalist system will only benefit the masses just as it created the most affluent and prosperous people in the world, the Americans! I love left wing wackos like Naomi and the rest of these socialist pigs, they are playing right into our capitalist neo-con hands the more visable and vocal they become the more elections we will win. Did any of you left wing wackos notice that for the first time since the end of the Vietnam war the head of that country is coming to America to bow at the Capitalist alter? I wonder why? Could it be that they finally took a look at the prosperity of Japan, South Korea and other nations we occupied and wished they hadn’t sided with international socialists like Naomi and comrads.  Instead they live in a socialist country where everyone being equal means they are all equally impoverished. Now take to streets comrads!

robert

you might want to check your screws

robert

So when did neo-con capitalist begin evoking Stalinist salutations like comrade?

Why do you hate America?

Not long after we entered WW2,it became obvious it was the right thing to do.The whole country realized it.And saw it through to the end.Not exactly whats happening today.And by the way,was ‘post traumatic stress syndrome’ a problem for those veterans like it is today?If not,why?Could it be because the WW2 vets never doubted that what they were doing was right?Not exactly whats happening today.To compare WW2 with Iraq is a pathetic and desperate attempt to justify a bad choice.Iraq didn’t attack us.We went to war with them based on a lie.Thats the truth,and all you “we support Bush cause we’re too scared of the world crowd” need to wake up and smell the coffee.You are all scared little pussies!!!

Robert,what empire in history has ever been benevolent?Your comments showcase the arrogance that define empires,and what ultimately results in their downfall.EVERYTIME.

truth

I think PTSS is very much evident in WW2 vets. Ever hear of alcoholism? Ever hear about the vets who just don’t/won’t talk about the war….even with their family?

But I think you have a good point.

Did you know that the repuglicans fought tooth and nail to keep us out of the war, to keep the Jewish refugees from coming to America, even when they were on a ship coming here?

Did you know that the great Dem. leader FDR sidestepped the repuglicans in congress by devising “Lend/Lease” with Churchill so that England could re-arm itself?

Think back…when was the last war a repuglican president won? These people are greedy imperialist nothing more, nothing less.

As for scared little pussies, I don’t know, they do have big balls though.

Michael Kazin on Zinn, cited on this thread, from Dissent, the democratic socialist mag.,
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/wi04/kazin.htm
Zinn does reveal a few moments of democratic glory-occasions when “the people,” or at least a politically conscious fraction of them, temporarily broke through the elite’s thick web of lies and coercion. Agrarian rebels formed cooperatives, allied with radical unionists, and charted their own financial system, the subtreasury, which they hoped would break the grip of heartless bankers. But, alas, the Populists were seduced in 1896 by William Jennings Bryan, who sold out their movement to the retrograde Democratic Party. During the Great Depression, wage earners across the industrial Midwest staged heroic sit-down strikes that demonstrated their ability to shut down the economy. But, for unexplained reasons, these working-class heroes allowed CIO unions and the New Deal state to smother their discontent within long-term contracts and bureaucratic procedures. Similarly, the civil rights movement toppled the Southern citadel of Jim Crow without taking on the capitalist system that kept the black masses mired in poverty.

This is history as cynicism. Zinn omits the real choices our left ancestors faced and the true pathos, and drama, of their decisions. In fact, most Populists cheered Bryan and voted for him because he shared their enemies and their vision of a producers’ republic. Unlike Zinn, they grasped the dilemma of third parties in the American electoral system, which Richard Hofstadter likened to honeybees, “once they have stung, they die.” And to bewail the fact that liberal Democrats saw an advantage to supporting rights for unions and minorities is a stunning feat of historical naiveté. Short of revolution, a strategic alliance with one element of “the Establishment” is the only way social movements ever make lasting changes in law and public policy.

Zinn’s conception of American elites is akin to the medieval church’s image of the Devil. For him, a governing class is motivated solely by its appetite for riches and power-and by its fear of losing them. Numerous historians may regard George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton as astute, if seriously flawed, men who erected a structure for the new nation that has endured for over two centuries. But Zinn curtly dismisses them as “leaders of the new aristocracy” and regards the nation-state itself as a cunning device to lull ordinary folks with “the fanfare of patriotism and unity.”
<SNIP>
cont. @
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/wi04/kazin.htm

For all neo-con peckerheads, the end is near. Your chicken hawk president is on his way down.

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/politics/11574258.ht tm

2006 is closer than you think.

Have any of you who so fondly accuse the USA of wrongness, and exult in chomskyesque orgasms ever been consistently on an ARAB FORUM? Do you have the slightest CLUE?

I have, I am, and I am sorry to say, many of you are quite childish. So sorry.

Only now, NOW, is there the slightest dent and thought about what the washing away of the enire status quo MIGHT mean.

If there is anyone here with the facts to point out ANY difference politically between what Bush has done in Iraq, and what FDR did with the Neutrality Patrol 9 months before Pearl Harbor, when 79% of this nation did not want us involved in any foreign war, and 3 months after the draft pased BY ONE VOTE, I’d like to see it. Yet that little twist of policy in the face of congressional opposition, and public opinion which resulted immediately in hundreds of american deaths is today regarded as an act of clear morality and rightness. But it certainly wasn’t so clear in 1941.

I see very little difference. As EVEN Max hastings of the Guardian, no less, has now stated, if america will not act, no one will.

Bob, you could be right,although alchoholism has been a problem throughout history.I didn’t know about your other points though,thanx.As far as the Bush/war supporters being scared,I stand by that.Bush used that fear to get reelected.If you doubt that,just ask yourself this,since the election,have you heard of even 1 terror alert being given?They just magically disappeared off the radar screen.They weren’t needed anymore.Curious,wouldn’t you say?Not to mention the fact that all of our ‘fearless leaders’chickened out of the vietnam war.Everyone of them.Even though they believed the war was justified.SCARED LITTLE PUSSIES!!!

Margaret>… Go to
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/randirhodes/archives/archi ive_sound.php

Aargh.Randi Rhodes, as The New Republic reported a while ago has had on the air LaRoucheite neo-fascist conspiranoid, Webster Tarpley on her show hawking his book on the Bush family,
http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm
Other lefties on Pacifica Radio were takin’ in by John Bircher Soc. far rightists during the Gulf War
http://www.publiceye.org/rightwoo/rwooz9.html
Populist Party, LaRouchite, and Other Neo-fascist Overtures To Progressives, And Why They Must Be Rejected

Chip Berlet

Political Research Associates

Epa,do you have any facts,or are you just treating us to more of your mental margaritas?

http://www.fpif.org/papers/0409progiraq.html

FPIF Policy Report
September 2004

Who Are the Progressives in Iraq? The Left, the Right, and the Islamists
www.fpif.org

By Frank Smyth
Frank Smyth is a freelance journalist who has “embedded” with leftist guerrillas in El Salvador, Iraq, and Rwanda. He covered the 1991 uprisings against Saddam Hussein’s regime, and was later captured and held for two weeks inside Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison. He wrote this policy report for Foreign Policy In Focus (www.fpif.org). His clips are posted at www.franksmyth.com.

epaminoslsidhgnalkdu:

FDR and the neutrality act:

UNITED STATES - SEPTEMBER 1939
Neutrality Announced - On the 5th, President Roosevelt declares the neutrality of the United States in accordance with the 1937 Neutrality Act. This includes a ban on the sale of arms and munitions to all belligerents.

Military Strength - On the 8th, he proclaims a “limited national emergency” and increases the strength of the armed forces. This includes naval enlisted men from 110,000 to 145,000 and Marine Corps from 18,000 to 25,000. Retired Navy and Marine officers and men can also be recalled to active duty as needed.

Neutrality Patrol - The President also orders the organization of a Neutrality Patrol to protect the neutrality of the Americas and report any movement of belligerent forces towards the coasts of the United States or the West Indies. The Neutrality Patrol is formed on the 12th under the command of Commander Atlantic Squadron (Rear-Adm A W Johnson). Organized into eight groups consisting mainly of cruisers and destroyers, some with patrol aircraft support, it covers the coast from Canada down to the Caribbean. Battleships and a carrier are held in reserve.

Where are you going with this connection epamisldasdkia?

epaminisasdlkfoidu…

FDR and the neutrality act:

UNITED STATES - SEPTEMBER 1939
Neutrality Announced - On the 5th, President Roosevelt declares the neutrality of the United States in accordance with the 1937 Neutrality Act. This includes a ban on the sale of arms and munitions to all belligerents.

Military Strength - On the 8th, he proclaims a “limited national emergency” and increases the strength of the armed forces. This includes naval enlisted men from 110,000 to 145,000 and Marine Corps from 18,000 to 25,000. Retired Navy and Marine officers and men can also be recalled to active duty as needed.

Neutrality Patrol - The President also orders the organization of a Neutrality Patrol to protect the neutrality of the Americas and report any movement of belligerent forces towards the coasts of the United States or the West Indies. The Neutrality Patrol is formed on the 12th under the command of Commander Atlantic Squadron (Rear-Adm A W Johnson). Organized into eight groups consisting mainly of cruisers and destroyers, some with patrol aircraft support, it covers the coast from Canada down to the Caribbean. Battleships and a carrier are held in reserve.

Where ya going with the Patrol reference?

sorry about the re post

Maybe you ought to google the name??? One might have thought some curious enought to wonder...rather than ridicule

FDR used the Navy under the guise of the Neutrality Patrol to escort british merchants from the spring of 1941 (after the draft passed by one vote in 12/40) in order to both support a belligerent, and help get war goods TO that belligerent. But we were neutral. The Germans then sank the USS Reuben James. The Gallup poll started right then...79% of americans did not want us involved in this war for any reason. FDR made clear he felt we needed to be in it against the nazis (Conrad Black’s gr8 biography). In other words, depsite the polls, despite congressional opposition, despite the legalities he took those actions needed to get us into the war. He failed at that point.

Moral?

Absolutely

Today we have seen a situation where the entire status quo of the middle east HAD TO GO. Despite all the claims for 50 years of the ‘left’ (and I am a registered dem), it is the USA who is a revolutionary power, a force for change. And we acted. Left alone the actions of a national security only foreign policy (Mossadegh) only create more problems. The USA found after 9/11 that only way to greater security was democracies. If needs be at the point of a gun (just like 1945). The arab nations did have some nascent democratic movements, but they could never succeed . More overt action is called for, for these tiny groups to succeed. There is no choice. There is no way back. No way. Halliburton isnt even a ripple in these tidal forces.

Nor is it a big deal if the arabs in one of these nations vote in a govt which despises us. That govt, in a democracy will be interested in improving the roads, schools, and jobs, or they will be voted out. Get it? They will be fighting over whether their govt should boost aid for prescriptions by 5% or 8%..that is the way it works. What did we do when the turks told us to take the 4th ID and jam it? NOTHING. Why? Because the decision was representative of the people, and we knew it, and the cameras were ON.

Get on an arab forum site and stay there. You’ll understand WHY there is no alternative, and why these theories about Bechtel, Fluor, Halliburton, Israel are absolute trash...might as well be whining about the masons and templars.

Great article, Ms. Klein.  Those opposed to the war do need to understand the motives of the Bush administration and follow their course through policy, as you noted.  One part of the article, however, seems simplistic—supporting democracy.  If democracy were implemented, Iraq would probably split into three countries, along ethnic-religious lines.  I would encourage more emphasis on an international solution—placing Iraq under the supervision of the United Nations, as politically difficult as this may seem.

Gosh, if only you had your way, Saddam could still be in power, the Syrians could be slaughtering the Lebanese demonstrators, women could be wearing burkhas in Afghanistan, the Intifada could still be blowing up Israeli school children…

Wouldn’t the world be a brighter place?

This whole debate is silly since it is on a very silly polemic.
The way the left spouts endlessly a libel until it becomes accepted as truth is almost comical if it were not kind of serious.
“The administration says the war was about fighting for democracy. That was the big lie they resorted to when they were caught in the other lies. But it’s a different kind of a lie in the sense that it’s a useful lie. The lie that the United States invaded Iraq to bring freedom and democracy not just to Iraq but, as it turns out, to the whole world, is tremendously useful—because we can first expose it as a lie and then we can join with Iraqis to try to make it true.”

Take that passage, she uses the word ‘lie’ six times in one paragraph. What is silly is that it is in itself a lie. See this article from the NYT Magazine 2002 on Paul Wolfowitz. [Yes I know he’s considered on the left as being the devil incarnate but that is only because they have demonised him]
In this article he lays out a long standing theory that democratising ‘rogue’ countries which harbour and sponsor terrorism is the best long term way of dealing with the problem

Several commenters have written dispagagingly about the US being in Germany, Japan, S Korea.  Why don’t you ask the people of those countries if they are better off now than they were, and in the case of Germany and Japan, two of the most militaristic countries the world has seen, they are now peaceful democracies. And how ignore the difference between North and South Korea! And you see why I call this debate silly.

There is a very apt name for the likes of Naomi Klein, [I was going to abbreviate it to NK but thought it might cause confusion] and those who defend the article here, dingbats. I use it not as an epithet but as a fact, people who are blinded to any rational thinking by ideology and hatred.
They are the same people who hold candlelight vigils for condemned murderers but pass over the horrible beheadings of innocent people by the ‘insurgents’. Remember Margaret Passan who spent thirty years doing humanitarian work for the Iraqi people. Remember what your ‘insurgents’ did to her. You make me sick.

Naomi,

Great article. I have an idea how to start getting free media on NBC at least. Without fanfare, get a large group of anti-war returned and wounded vets to casually crowd around the “Today” show sidewalk window and very quietly raise signs condemning the war. A guy in a wheel chair is a pretty powerful image and needs to be seen nationally. Even better to time it for an appearance by Bill Frist or RUMSFELD! Yeah.

Al Gore’s internet tells me that ole Epa was not very socially adept as he was a hot head and he trained in ascetic ways. (he wore a lot of old clothes and begged for his dinner)
He argued with King Agesilaus and got his ass kicked out of the peace counsel in Sparta.

Epa invented guerilla warfare when he had his phalanxs attack from the side instead of straight on, like the old guys had always done.

He did some conquering as a young man, but upon his return to Thebes he was charged with abusing his office, he got off on a technicality, he saved Thebes.

While blogging in the month of May, he was found blathering on about nascent democratic movements, and American Empire and such. Expounding on the need for American world domination, there by insuring world peace. Epa seemingly ignores that conservation and alternative fuels would completely negate any relevance of middle eastern oil reserves and the need to for America to own them.

Well,I scanned various arab forums,anti american sentiment is rising rapidly,ranging anywhere between 80% to 98%.Due to our foreign policies toward Palistine and Iraq,and not our culture.Pretty convincing stuff Epalyingtous.

U Scare Me is absolutely right about our educational system in this country. He’s a perfect example.

I also read about how some Iraqis have declared fatwah against the terrorists.Arabs fighting Arabs.There’s something new under the sun...Same old same old.

Please, ligneus , you can’t use Wolfowitz as a source for a long standing theory…for god’s sake, it was HIS OWN long standing theory concocted and written up by the good folks over at PNAC. Remember that the good Margaret Passan was not bothered for all those years...it wasn’t until the US invaded and occupied Iraq that she and others were so disgustingly killed. 

Bush said WMD. Powell showed us the pictures, Tennet said slam dunk, Rumsfeld backed them all up. IT WAS A LIE. Peckerhead bush was going to Iraq come hell or high water and its all over the news.

We are there now, we have to find a way to stabilize the cradle of civilazion and we have to get out.

Ligneus,the debate became silly when you logged on.Ligneus is a silly name.Isn’t that,like half a word?

Let’s answer one question at a time, who attacked us on September 11?

Considering that most of the 9/11 terrorists were saudis,I would say,hmmm,SATAN!!!!

Sorry,I had a church lady flashback.

condemning all Saudis’ as satan is a little harsh

osama bin laden (once supported by raygun/bush 1 and rumsfleld and cheney) and 19 terrorists...mostly saudi’s

Bush sent troops into Afghanistan to bring him back dead or alive….how did that work out?

I’ll answer the question was it worth it to overthrow Saddam. It depends on who you are asking. If you ask an Iraqi family who has lost children, brothers, sisters, parents, what would they say? If you ask the 57% of Americans who now say it wasn’t worth it, what would they say? If you ask the parents of slain American soldiers, what would they say? If you ask Halliburton or Bechtel who have gained billions, what would they say? If you ask most of the rest of the world what would they say?

I can tell you from my standpoint that of course it was not worth it. It in no way made the world safer - to the contrary. It is now proven that Saddam was totally contained, THERE WERE NO WMDS.
But this sure has been a great recruiting tool for Osama Bin Laden (remember him?)And what exactly did it accomplish for the Iraqis? A destroyed country, no jobs, little electriciy, continued chaos, occupation......

Make no mistake, the reason we went into Iraq is simple. Oil is running out and the US has decided to meet that challenge militarily. Given that Iraq is sitting on a motherlode of oil and just as importantly it is situated in exactly the right location for the US to establish military bases to police the rest of the middle east so that as oil supplies continue to decline we can use our military power to wrest what we need.
There is no exit plan becuase the US does not plan to exit - ever - or as long as oil exists in the middle east. The stakes are way too big. And our life style,as Cheney said, is non-negotiable.

Thank you Bilbo

But I can’t discern if you support American imperialism or not.

But you are correct; the premise for the Iraq war was/is a lie.

We ARE there for the oil and to have a US military force in the Middle East.

We are the ugly Americans once again, killing tens of thousands of innocents to hold on to our non negotiable life style.

How to stop the war?

Why stop there? Let’s stop the whole big lie behind this totally illegitimate criminal enterprise called the Bush Cheney administration.
9/11 was a U.S. Military attack overseen by our intellegence and Cheney. Until this sinks in and is made known to all, the rest of everthing said above is useless.

End the war by convincing everyone in the United States to commit suicide for our sins against humanity.  That way we won’t consume 25% of the world’s oil each day, we won’t try to force our political system onto the poor, unsuspecting victims of tyrants, dictatorships and oligarchies everywhere.  That way we won’t turn the Earth into a massive hot potato of incandescent CO2.  And outer space won’t be militarized.  The sea lanes will be open for all the peaceful people of the world (and dolphins!) to use like a giant, liquid playground.

If only we can convince all those stupid religious people that there’s no heaven above us, no hell below (Lennon, not Lenin).  If they have nothing to fear for their soul then that would get us quite a way along the road.  I mean, how can anybody justify the existence of this country?  We need to give all of our wealth to the poor so they can have all the things necessary for a good life.  Heck they can have my house.  Come on over right now!  We can all smoke some reefer, do a few electronic banking transactions into the U.N.’s Oil For Food account and then O.D. on Viagra.

Thanks for really changing the world.  Answer the U.S. Military-Industrial Complex murder with murder (a suicide is just an introverted murderer as Monty Python says).  I’m hoping for your eventual enlightenment.  Get ‘er done.

PD

whats so funny about peace, love and understanding?
Elvis not Elvis

Very funny, Mr. Quig.  You are a sorry excuse for a human being.  We’re trying to be serious here and find a way to END THE WAR.  Since you obviously find this an amusing topic, why don’t you just go back to the right-wing, hate-mongering website that directed you to us peace-loving, gentle people--who hate, disdain, marginalize, patronize or ignore at least 51% of our fellow countrymen?  We’re utopians--we cannot be proved wrong.  We measure our political enemies against what could possibly happen some day in our perfect conception of the world.  However, do ignore that little failed experiment of our past political infatuation that resulted in the slaughter of over 100 million innocents (communism).  It really wasn’t done properly, you know.  Next time our ideas for a better world really will work.  Trust us.

The satan comment was a joke Bob.I guess my point is that since the 9/11 terrorists were saudis,who were members of Al Quaida,(damn,how do you spell that?)who was linked to the taliban in Afganistan,who has been linked to Quadaffi in Libya,who has been linked with hezbolah,who has been linked with Hamas,who has been linked with Osama bin Hiding,who has been linked with madonna,who has been linked with britany,(I saw the pictures)who knows who’s responsible for 9/11.Hmmmm,maybe there was a link with Saddam.OH MY GOD,I’VE SEEN THE LIGHT!BUSH REALLY IS TALKING TO GOD.HE’S TOLD BUSH TO BRING DEMOCRACY,APPLE PIE,AND SEXY LINGERIE TO THE GOOD PEOPLE OF THE MIDDLE EAST!And in return,we get all their oil.I guess it’s worth the lives of our brave soldiers after all.

The topic 9/11 has come up several times in this comment section. It is painfully clear how many are still in the dark. Please see link for further reading

http://www.911truth.org/

PD:

33% - we consume 33% of the worlds oil supply and account for less than ten percent of the population

Right Greg,all kidding aside,when Bush @ company start feeling that they’re losing their grip on power,and they will,it’s already starting to happen,where do you think they’ll set off the nuke?After that, any pretence of democracy and freedom will fall away like the thin veneer that it is.We’ll be begging them to impose marshall law and protect us from them barbarians.People cannot even conceive the possibility that it was our own leaders that did this to us.Remember Pearl Harbor.

I hope I’m wrong.

tw,

Let’s say the U.S was controlled by a dictator for 35 years who enforced his will through mass graves.  Let’s also say that a foreign power, say Canada, cam