Just when it seemed the Iraq war couldn’t get worse, the United States admitted on November 16 that forces in Fallujah did use white phosphorus (WP) as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants. However, the Pentagon continues to deny that soldiers used WP—a “spontaneously flammable” and “extremely toxic inorganic substance,” according to the Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventative… return to article
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Reader Comments (75)Page 1 of 1 pagesCheck out this documentary! You can find a few sites that have it if you run a google search. I will warn you that it is very disturbing. There are people whose skin has been burned down to the bone, while their clothes remain. Many are women and children. There are others who have become ill from breathing it in. Anyone still naive enough to think we have the moral high ground in this conflict needs to see this documentary.
Posted by Disseminator on Nov 23, 2005 at 8:56 AM “But James Nachtwey, the award-winning war photographer, wrote in 1985 that if everyone “could see for themselves what white phosphorus does to the face of a child … they would understand that nothing is worth letting things get to the point where that happens to even one person, let alone thousands.”
Ok. But isn’t this ttue of war in general, whether just or not? Isn’t having limbs and life torn from someone (a child or anyone, really) just as terrible? Or having bullets rip through your flesh, leaving one multilated, dead or dying?
One might think that terrorism is the most vile sort of war. After all, it targets innocent civilians. But surely ALL wars kill many many innocents. . .
Posted by wolf on Nov 23, 2005 at 3:32 PM So what are you saying, Wolf???!!!
Is war okay or isn’t it?
And as far as WP is concerned: it pains me as a total rejecter of the notion of a death penalty even to pose this question, but is there a difference between a firing squad that shoots its victim through the heart and one that sprays WP on the victim so as to cause an indescribably painful death? It seems that you would answer this question in the negative.
And why is terrorism, which can target only a limited number of civilians, more vile than the war machines of national armies, with their access to the multitudes? Was 9/11 (probably an inside job, but that is not the issue here) more vile than Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Dresden? to name just a few of the most well-known examples of atrocities commited by the “democratic” powers… Let’s forget Indo-China, Indonesia, Central America, etc., etc.
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Nov 23, 2005 at 4:54 PM Wolf,
How do you distinguish between bad ‘terrorists’ and acts of violence committed by states? What exactly distinguishes the two? The identity of the actors who carry out the violence? The saction of a powerful state for some acts of violence, and the lack of state sanction for other kinds? How would you describe the overthrow of regimes of which the US dispapproves? Terrorism? Prudent preventative action? What exactly?When is an act of violence a crime and when is it an act of war? Who says so, and who gets to define it? Let me be clear-the people who murdered civilians by flying planes into the WTC and the Pentagon etc, are, in my opinion, criminals. Pure and simple.
But I don’t believe that the US can claim the sole right to define acts of violence, as ‘terrorism’ on the one hand, and acts committed by itself and in its name, as justifiable war, just because it is the most militarily powerful country in the world. It is true that the US can do (almost) what it likes. But it doesn’t make it right, and in case you hadn’t noticed, most people in the world have observed the distinction the US draws between what the rest of the world may do, and what is permitted to itself. That is the real big problem the US has, and even if you don’t think it matters, it does matter. The real elites in the US, as opposed to pathetic apologists for power scribling away for the Murdoch press understand this quite well. The rest of us are waiting for the people of the US to understand this as well, and then we might get a real debate that involves a conversationbetween equals, as opposed to the bellowing and bullying that characterises the conduct of the US’ relations with the rest of the planet.
Posted by Jane Doe on Nov 23, 2005 at 10:53 PM Though I think that it vital to know what is being done by the U.S. government in the name of the United States citizenry at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer, and it is important that it be documented; it sometimes strikes me as a national pathology to argue about technicalities while innocent people are being massacred in an illegal occupation that followed an illegal aggressive attack that has no legal justification whatsoever.
It is not my intention to criticize this article---I believe that there is a need for it to be written, read, and discussed. But in the big picture, this and similar articles about other violations seem analogous to making an issue about whether a serial killer violated the law by shooting hunters in duck season.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 23, 2005 at 11:57 PM WW:
I think wolf was making a similar point from a different perspective. He seemed to be asking whether *how* we killed people was really important since bullets are, in fact, pretty painful if you get hit by one.
I happen to think that the weapons we choose do make a difference. Here are a couple of examples.
Cluster bombs. These are a prominent reason we are not signatories to any anti-land mine treaties. We know that kids pick up the colorful, unexploded canisters, but these tragedies are *inadvertent* and therefore irrelevant.
Depleted Uranium. There was a time when cigarettes were unofficially known to be harmful, but cigarette makers denied the facts. This is where we are with assessing the effects of DU munitions.
M-16: Due to the tumbling action of the relatively small projectile, being struck is more likely to cause horrible wounds which arguably violates articles 35 and 36 of the Geneva Conventions.
WP and Napalm - Classic irony that WP is a chemical weapon when used by Saddam, but no such thing when used by us.
I’d have to say, if your sovereignty is at stake, it’s hard to fault a country for using this or that type of weapon or tactic. I wouldn’t know about that. We seem to fight wars for other reasons these days.
Posted by GrayArea on Nov 25, 2005 at 1:03 AM Any use of deadly or violent force has more than the intent and the justification used, as the definition of its moral level. It’s not just what you mean to do and the reasons you give for doing it that make you accountable.
It’s also, or perhaps mainly, the results. Intended or unintended.
We meant to destroy an enemy’s ability to fight, we unintentionally blew up and burned innocent civilians in the process, because the enemy was hiding among them.
We didn’t mean to, and our reasons for attacking the enemy where he was are not spurious in the context of a war.
But there’s no escaping the accountability for the innocent deaths and maimings. If I shoot a deadly intruder in my house, killing him, and the bullet flies through his head and out the window striking a child across the street, I’m still accountable morally for that harm. I didn’t mean to. I was justified in shooting my enemy. But that child’s blood is on my hands whether the cops let me walk or not.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 25, 2005 at 1:44 AM “We” did not mean to destroy an “enemys” ability to fight. There was no justification for attacking Iraq. Iraq had not in any way threatened us, and until we bombed their populace into madness, there were no “terrorists” in any part of Iraq that Saddam Hussein controlled. There may have been a few in the Northern Fly Zone in which Hussein had no control. Dictators have a tendency to keep “terrorist” activity at a minimum. Totalitarian Idealogues are generally terrorists in uniforms or facsimilies thereof. Hussein was a dictator.
No matter what a bastard Saddam Hussein was/is that is not an excuse to murder tens or hundreds of thousands of people who happen to have had the bad luck to be born into a time and place when he was dictator and the U.S. presidency was being controlled by control freak zealots with a “blueprint” to take over the planet (totalitarian idealogues).
That’s why the whole democracy thing got started---so scores of people were not jerked about by the whims of one man and/or a small pack of wolves with a military at their command.
I agree that some munitions should be banned. I think we should join the treaty to end the use of cluster bombs and land mines and that we should sign back onto the ABM treaty and start some talks about nuclear disarmament (at least take our missiles off hair-trigger alert). I think we should never under any circumstance use munitions with radiological material.
But my point is that the attack itself was illegal, and the occupation is oppressive and irresponsible, and illegal. Iraqis don’t even have a reliable supply of food, water, electricity, medical supplies, and gas yet. Is that part of the plan to kill “the enemy” so that the one or two people in Iraq who are not “fair game” to our military may be “liberated”.
If we were spending six billion a month to buy resources and hire Iraqis to fix what we bombed, we wouldn’t have so many “enemies” to test our new array of weapons and every old munition that we pilfered from every old supply warehouse on every old base we could get our hands on. The sheer amount of ordinance the U.S. is and has been lobbing at cities and small towns for the last three years is outrageous.
Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11.
Saddam Hussein had no weapons of destruction.
Saddam Hussein was not a buddy of Bin Laden.
Saddam Hussein was no threat to us or any of his neighbors.If Americans could just get these simple facts through their heads they would see the abomination of what we’re doing in Iraq. That “spreading democracy” is such crap that I can’t believe people who are capable of reading and writing are falling for it. There may be one or two Iraqis benefitting from the rampant graft and corruption in Iraq who need our protection, but other than that the Iraqi people do not want us to “liberate” them because they do not want to be the victims of air strikes, snipers, WP, the butt of a rifle, etc., and because didn’t ask us to liberate them in the first place.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 25, 2005 at 1:38 PM I am concerned that the next preemptive war will start before the Iraq war is over ( always remembering the consequences of war go on forever ).
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 26, 2005 at 3:38 PM I’ve been reading these comments and I can only conclude that the impulse for war, and the things implied by that impulse, is our enemy.
Wolf is right...it doesn’t matter how we kill the families of Iraq…
there is no nobility in submachine gun fire or incendiery bombs or tank mortar.
When we discuss ‘how evil’ we can be without actually appearing evil, we are lost. It’s all bad.
We live in a world where everyone wonders what there is to eat for lunch....the way that meal becomes possible determines how we interact with one another.
We send some of our young men and women out to fight others for access to the honey pot. We send the rest to school to make them more knowledgable about the location of that honey pot, but we charge them and their families a fee for that access.
Meanwhile, food is all over the place...growing out of the ground, scampering through the forest.
At what point did it start making sense to kill other people to make lunch easier to find?
And shelter is only made from wood and mud ....we just have to do a little rearranging to make a home.
sheesh!
Posted by minerva on Nov 27, 2005 at 1:54 PM Perhaps I’ve been misreading Wolf. I didn’t think his point was that that we shouldn’t use any firearms or weapons at all, though he does seem to me to be genuinely questioning warfare. Maybe I just failed to pick up on his pacifism.
Anyway, I get your drift about ‘talking about’ evil, but you haven’t specified who the “we” is that is wondering what to eat for lunch and is wondering how “evil” we can be before we start to appear to be “evil”. I don’t ever hear anyone talking about what acceptable evils we can commit, other than which president to vote for.
Perhaps you are saying that what we consider to be evil is an issue that we should address.
The point in my post was that we shouldn’t forget, in the process of reporting new and/or banned weaponry, that we shouldn’t be killing Iraqis in the first place and it’s important not to forget that. If you forget that, then it’s easy to go from “we” are using particularly nasty weapons, to “oh, we stopped using that particularly nasty weapon, so everthing’s peaches now”.
I would say that our entire executive branch, congress, defense department, and military industrial complex are evil and are having evil things done FOR them (so they don’t risk being injured, and have ample time for lunch) to reward themselves and their evil friends and families with booty at the U.S. taxpayers expense and the unfathomable suffering of people of other nations and of “the troops”.
Also, the old adage holds true---if you want to see what a person is really made of give them power.
It would not surprize me to find that in the entire history of human warfare (most of it prehistoric) that there has never been a war started for lunch or food. I’d wager that the frontrunner would be land and resource grabbing, to be followed by capturing people to enslave, and tribal differences that seemed unreconcilable and a plethora of young men with nothing to do.
In the modern world, with banks and munitions manufacturing, war is simply profitable. Most of us don’t have an “impulse” to war. That’s why our government has to hire expensive PR managers like the Rendon Group to whoop the populace into a pro-killing war frenzy. Attacking one’s own country or allowing it to be attacked is a pretty reliable tool---most people do have an impulse for self-defense. Most people would rather have lunch than go to war for any reason other than defending the homeland, with the exception of sociopaths and people who are brainwashed, and people who are frightenlingly sporting.
The millions of people who are starving in this world are not spending their labor on munitions. The people who start wars generally have quite enough to eat and ridiculously large houses. Food and shelter is not the issue.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 27, 2005 at 3:39 PM David---I started reading the article you connected to but my innner scream stopped me. I’ll finish it later. It did remind me of something I heard recently---we’ve been doing illegal fly-overs over Iran for months with fighter planes. One manuever we’re repeating (I can’t remember the name of it) is a similation of how a fighter would fire a tactical nuclear missile. It fires, then turns quickly around to fly in the opposite direction of the missile to escape the blast and the effects afterword. Pretty dramatic show on the radar, I’d bet.
I don’t think the military people in Iraq are stupid enough to shoot down one of our jets in this “I double dare you” game of provocation. But we could shoot one down ourselves.
At this point in the PR game, a terrorist attack on U.S. soil would NOT rally people to W’s side.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 27, 2005 at 3:50 PM On the question of the definition of “terrorism”:
Chomsky has been saying it for decades: when “they” murder innocent civilians in cold blood it is terrorism. When “we” do it is a justifiable and morally pure. Check out his classic discussions of Reagan’s self-proclaimed “year of the war on terror” (sometime in the early 1980s, I forget which year), where he shows that the three main candidates for the prize of carrying out the most deadly terrorist act were the CIA, the CIA and Mossad/CIA.
If there were any justice in this world, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the whole crew would be clapped in irons and shipped off to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes - for THE supreme war crime, actually (as established at the Nürnberg Tribunal). And they should be happy to stand trial there, where they’d face life in prison, and not in Washington, where they’d be facing the death penalty (yes, these laws are on the books in the USA as well...).
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Nov 27, 2005 at 3:52 PM David---I started reading the article you connected to but my innner scream stopped me.
Scary, isn’ it. Or sad, I wept on the inside.
If provocation doesn’t work there are other means to the end.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 27, 2005 at 5:11 PM the proverbial ... Read it and weep.
Or laugh. Or scream. Or get drunk. Or get Jesus.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 27, 2005 at 5:14 PM “People who are frightenlingly sporting...”
I loved that line!
And I guess the ‘what to have for lunch’ is so removed from modern reality as to be nonsensical.
But I figure the land grab aspect of your argument says it all....when rights to land get dedicated to a select few, and we start to back ‘elected officials’ to enforce that standard through military action ( you know how much we love a Democracy....."we", the wage lottery winners who have enough cash to buy computers, and the ongoing means for internet access, lol) the rules of survival get skewed.
Land lords gobble up the feeding rights and then parcel them out to ‘shareholders’… it’s ‘40 acres and a mule’ all over again, but 20,00 or so are expected to live off that small dispensation. When hunger, or the fear of others, becomes too much, we prepare for war, hacking, slashing and maiming our way through the cafeteria line to the hairnetted comfort of the ladies who dole out the hot food..you’ll always see the vegetarian free rangers who look for the salad bar option who pay extra for their pickiness, but they’re on the periphery of the lunch discussion
Wake up, opportunity feeders!
War has become all about ‘power’, when it should be brought back to the ‘what to have for lunch’ issue.
And that’s too bad, and a crying shame, lol
Posted by minerva on Nov 27, 2005 at 6:15 PM MInerva, are you familiar with Henry George? You might be interested in a discussion group and/or a free economics class based on the principles of Henry George that makes land an intentity separate from capitol in it’s economic theory.
I’m too lazy to go get the address, but if you put “Henry George” and “Economic Justice” in a decent search engine I’ll bet you find it.
The wars we have today wouldn’t be possible without the proceeds of massive amounts of economic rent, a debt based monetary system with a private reserve banking system, and the abiliity to tax the future.
We pay a LOT of tribute, and so does everyone who comes after us and has to deal with the billion dollar messes and trillion dollar deficit, and justifiably murderous hatred in the future.
Anyway, I believe the question for the oligarchy, plutocracy, and corporate mafia is WHO they have for lunch and who isn’t going to get any because the landed gentry and organized wealthy criminals consider it to be too much overhead for the wage slaves.
Deny them birth control and they’ll just keeping making more slaves, so it doesn’t matter if the life expectancy of a slave is 39 if you count yourself amongst the “ownership society”.
The lottery is ever shifting and changing. Odds in the U.S. are in a tailspin, but at least we have a lot to lose.
Of course, some of the world’s peasants are so stupid that “violence is all they understand”! It may have something to do with the fact that they don’t understand and speak English---or Ummarikun, or whatever, but you, like, have to bomb the crap out of ‘em before they’ll be, like, slaves for corpocracy----er, uh---before they’ll be “democratic” and embrace “the free market”, that’s it. Yep. They just don’t appreciate what’s good for em, no matter how hard we try.
We wouldn’t all be burping up buttterflies and rainbows after going Geoist, but we wouldn’t be idling on the edge of ultimate doom either. Some people have way more land and capitol than can be justified by merit, law, or good looks.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 27, 2005 at 8:16 PM Anaracho-Sazi--- Yes. Pot and the kettle are awfully black, are they not?
David---Amen, and pass me another pint of beer.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 27, 2005 at 8:19 PM Hi, thanks for the Henry George search , wiley....
I particularly appreciated the phrase “He later narrowly missed being elected mayor of New York. “ I found at
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/George.htmlIt was interesting to learn about the value of taxing the trees for the forest, or the forest for the trees, all in terms of their abilty to be Christmas decorations… if you own that tree lot, and aren’t trying to make a gazillion dollars off it by hacking down the forest and selling it to idiots who enjoy having a dead tree in their homes for a week in late December (so you can stash your ill gotten and probably acquired on credit goods as a symbol of love and fidelity to your family ) then you’re probably not playing the game right…
I found that particular insight illuminating and valuable, lol.
Posted by minerva on Nov 27, 2005 at 9:22 PM I’m not sure I get your point.
NO----THAT’S A LIE. I don’t get it....except for the part about Christmas, credit, and love being the really reaky thang, that it is.
But that encyclopedia does not do George or geoism justice at all. I suspect it was written by a grunt of “free trade” and “the invisible hand” and “globalization”. George did not “primarily borrow”....etc. anymore than anyone else is influenced by the thinkers of their time, though he probably “narrowly missed being elected...”
This----"Had George’s single tax on land been in existence, Disney might never have made the investment” (in reference to Disneyworld in Florida)---is one heck of a good argument FOR geoism. The people we import most of our food from are going hungry while we go to Disneyworld? Screw it.
http://www.progress.org/
Is the site I’d recommend. They have quite a few articles up about Iraq and oil and money-grubbing land grabbers.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 28, 2005 at 11:10 AM Totally off-subject, but I don’t think anyone who puts up an evergreen for the holidays is an idiot. Christmas tree growing is about the least envrionmentally farming there is, generally being a family business and not an agri-conglomerate behemoth. It smells good and you can compost it in the end unlike the plastic stuff. Christmas trees are a joy, not a source of guilt, imo.
Good article exposing war atrocities.
Posted by pick of the litter on Nov 29, 2005 at 12:04 PM I see lots of Christmas tree farms on the ride between here and Portland. They’re sweet looking little tree farms. There’s some serious geothermally heated greenhouses with a light schedule that puts trees through three growing seasons in one year.
After a year of fruit flowers dying in the frost (no fruit), I like the idea of smart tree farming even more than I usually do. I love trees.
Christmas trees aren’t war atrocities, that’s for sure. Exploding or incendiary Christmas trees and ornaments would not be festive or appropriate accessories for a holiday that glorifies the birth of Christ and economic rentiers.
Nativity and debt. As long as our country is ruled by a private reserve bank we will be born in debt.
Fortunately, most of the rest of the world is learning how to shake of the IMF and the useless parasites it breeds.
I’m not bitter.
Tis the season of mud and air so dirty you can see it down to the ground, in these parts.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 29, 2005 at 2:35 PM “Christmas trees aren’t war atrocities, that’s for sure. Exploding or incendiary Christmas trees and ornaments would not be festive or appropriate accessories for a holiday that glorifies the birth of Christ and economic rentiers. “
i like your mind wileywitch
“Nativity and debt. As long as our country is ruled by a private reserve bank we will be born in debt. “
(couldn’t agree more)
‘Tis the season.....ahh…
just so sad to think about people’s bodies being burned, while the architects stonewall,
and their clever marketing departments design new recruiting commercials,jingle hells, jingle hells,
jingle all the way,
oh what fun.......it is to ride........
Posted by pick of the litter on Nov 29, 2005 at 4:16 PM I think the Big Boyz are going to take the Vulcans DOWN baby! On the world stage, they have already lost---a bunch of dead-enders.
Only the most boob-tubed American true-believers and grifters (who will lose it all before they face the fact of their unsupportable uselessness and empty portfolios) will stick behind this sorry a**ed bunch of pathological losers.
Republicans running for Senate consider appearing with the “president” to be political suicide.
His aides are talking about invoking Article 25 (?) and having Bush removed for mental incompetence.
Generals are scared. (Generals are only going to be scared for so long, before they get proactive, and I trust that they KNOW that Cheney is the one from which they must wrench all electronic military command.)
Much of the world needs to be given a rest and time to recover from the evil deeds of psychopathic control freaksters like Dick Cheney, delusional megalomaniacs with a (faux) Messiah complex like George W., and dusty old bureacratic spiders like Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld (talk about dinosaurs (and mixing my metaphors)---these goons can’t let go of the Cold War.)
I don’t want to apologize for them. I want to see the world’s courts throw the book at the whole lot of them and see them convicted for their crimes.
If I were World King I’d deprive these rat bastards the use of currency so that they could work for food or drink the damned hemlock. How many human beings does it take to haul their dead weight around?
I wouldn’t ask the people of Iraq or Afghanistan for forgiveness, but I believe I could share some feelings of vindication for the death, disease, and brutality that this ‘government’ has dealt the innocent people of these nations for all of human time. Perhaps these nations’ governments can arrange for extradiction so that the Vulcans can be tried according to the Shia rule of law they’ve inspired.
Posted by wileywitch on Nov 29, 2005 at 11:25 PM TERRIBLE TYPO CORRECTION: “Shia” should read “Sharia” (Sp?) --- a term that refers to the equivalent of “biblical” law in Muslim society.
“Shia” refers to an ethnic tribe. The Shia tribes in Iraq are concentrated in oil rich Southern Iraq. The most right leaning imams of this tribe are allied with right leaning Iranian Shia and the current Ayatollah.
Thanks to the chaos, insecurity, and soul crushing grief being dealt to Iraqis, recruitment for radical moslem fundamentalist groups is up.
I don’t know what the ayatollah of Iran’s name is. We practically handed him Southern Iraq on a platter of mint. Guess I might want to learn the names of Irani leaders, since our nations could become embroiled in some international drama or go to war any minute now.
The U.S. has reserved the right to launch a first strike tactical nuke at Iran’s nuclear facilities, and U.S Air Force fighter pilots have been practicing the launch manuevers inside Irani airspace. If Iranian air defense has taken the bait or made any moves, then everyone involved is keeping it amazingly secret.
The nuke would be approximately five times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima (if I’m not mistaken.)
Way to start a fight, huh?
“Whiskey Pete” is no less horrible than it is----an agent of human agony that can only be screamed. Who would wish this on anyone? Against children? On themselves?
Does it get any more indiscriminate than opening the volley with 5 Hiroshimas against a nuclear power plant in a nation that is exercising it’s legal right to nuclear power (sold to them by Donald Rumsfeld during the Shah’s reign. Rummy was pitching for Bechtel in those days.) a nation that also appears to be in compliance with all treaties considering it’s legal nuclear energy activities?
Being the embodiment of evil must be a tough job.
It is of no use to say it, but what the hell? Shakespeare said it! ---
“The quality of mercy is never strained.”
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 1, 2005 at 12:38 AM I hope that will not come to pass.
Besides buying and selling nuclear weaponry, look what else Rumsfield has been doing in ‘Messopotamia’ :
“Pentagon pays Iraqi papers to print its ‘good news’ stories “
Jamie Wilson in Washington
Thursday December 1, 2005
The Guardianexcerpts:
“One military official told the LA Times the military has also bought an Iraqi newspaper and taken control of a radio station, both used to channel pro-American messages. The propaganda offensive is said to have caused unease among some senior military officials at the Pentagon and in Iraq, especially when the US is promising to promote democratic principles.
At a press conference on Tuesday defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the number of “free” media organisations in Iraq was one of its great success stories, offering a “relief valve” for the Iraqi public to debate the issues of the day.
A senior Pentagon official told the LA Times: “Here we are trying to create the principles of democracy in Iraq. Every speech we give in that country is about democracy. And we’re breaking all the first principles of democracy when we’re doing it.” “
--------------
“ A spokeswoman for the group did not return calls yesterday. On one occasion documented by the LA Times a man with the same name as a Lincoln worker paid editors at the Al Mada newspaper $900 (£520) to publish an article headlined “terrorists attack Sunni volunteers”. He paid cash and left no calling card. Records obtained by the LA Times show the man told the Lincoln Group he gave the paper more than $1,200.
Iraqi editors apparently reacted with a mixture of shock and shrugs when told they were targets of a US military psychological operation. The editor of Al Mada, widely considered the most thoughtful and professional of Iraqi newspapers, said if his cash-strapped paper had known the story was from the US government he would have “charged much, much more” “
Ha ha ha!
Wonder how much the Pentagon paid U.S. journalists to shill for their war here at home?
Posted by pick of the litter on Dec 1, 2005 at 7:59 AM oops, that was from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1654661,00.html
Posted by pick of the litter on Dec 1, 2005 at 8:00 AM Wiley, great quote from Willy Shakespeare. Please allow me to complete the line.
“The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven.”
William Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 1, 2005 at 11:01 AM Oh, David in Canada, my heart melteth. That’s beautiful! Thanks for the correction, as well.
Good link PoL. You’re keeping your eyes on the ball. Before a computer crash about three eons ago, I had saved a site in which a very clever person had taken a large volume of photos taken of Rumsfeld talking with his hands, the way only he can.
The comedian gave it a martial arts moniker and then named each of a series of gestures as martial arts moves. It was hilarious.
Now Rumsfeld looks ridiculously silly to me. I almost enjoy watching him talk now---is that morbid or what?
If you watch carefully on the television screen he sometimes appears to be rolling and shaping invisible bits of clay to form a reality that only resides in his head and the head of the collective chump.
I had my last cigarette on June 5th. I’ve quit many times, but now I know that I have absolutely finished with it--- I framed it as a dialogue with my inner a**hole, and “cheating” to lose is
“dumber than Donald Rumsfield”. I don’t have any inner anything that is as dumb as Donald Rumsfeld. And I’m not that much of an a**hole.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 1, 2005 at 2:16 PM It looks like Rumsfeld has been talking with his hands some more and having epiphanies too.
The US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld has banned the use of the word ‘insurgents’ when referring to the militants operating in Iraq. “Over the weekend I thought to myself. ‘You know, that gives them a greater legitimacy than they seem to merit,” he told journalists during a Pentagon briefing on Tuesday. “It was an epiphany,” he said, throwing his hands in the air.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 1, 2005 at 3:43 PM Oooh, doggy. Unf***ing-believable. Their ability to top their lowest selves is beyond the ability of those who feel bonded to the human race and suffer from the conscience that comes with empathy and a clue.
To the puzzle factory with all of them! The high-security criminally insane puzzle factory---not of those cushy state hospitals.
Then off to the trials.
Off to more trials.
To prosecuted and imprisoned for life, or to be extradited for trial in all countries in which they are guilty of committing or conspiring to committing crimes again peace, humanity, and war crimes.
Then off with their heads!
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 1, 2005 at 10:26 PM ““Shia” refers to an ethnic tribe. The Shia tribes in Iraq are concentrated in oil rich Southern Iraq. The most right leaning imams of this tribe are allied with right leaning Iranian Shia and the current Ayatollah.
Thanks to the chaos, insecurity, and soul crushing grief being dealt to Iraqis, recruitment for radical moslem fundamentalist groups is up.
I don’t know what the ayatollah of Iran’s name is. We practically handed him Southern Iraq on a platter of mint. Guess I might want to learn the names of Irani leaders, since our nations could become embroiled in some international drama or go to war any minute now.”
Wow. Please do a little research before spouting off such idiotic untruths. The Shia are a religious group - not an ethnic group or tribe. It’s like saying Catholics or Protestants are “tribes” - totally inaccurate.
Iraqi Shiites are allied with Iranian Shiites and we handed the Iranian Ayatollah southern Iraq on a platter? Well, lets see. The Shia in Iraq are taking support from wherever they can get it. Iraqi Shia are ethnic Arabs who speak Arabic. Iranian Shia are ethnic Persians who speak Farsi. Iraqi Shia have NO desire to be part of Iran and ruled by an alien ethnic group. Any more than Sunni Kurds (who speak Kurdish) in northern Iraq have any desire to be ruled by Sunni Iraqi Arabs (who speak Arabic) from Central Iraq.
It’s like saying that if the US and Mexico (countries with differnt cultures and different languages) both had Catholic presidents the countries would merge. Idiocy
Sorry, but your ignorance is overwhelming.
Posted by Campesino on Dec 1, 2005 at 11:21 PM Campesino,
How about sharing your knowledge in the spirit of good will?
Saying people are ignorant and insinuating they are idiots is not a very good way to teach them something they could learn.
Sorry, but your rudeness is just as overwhelming.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 2, 2005 at 12:36 AM So, Campesino, just how dearly educated are you in matters of Iraqi ethnicity? Are you the grand poo-bah of Middle Eastern Studies, or something?
If I am in error or am misunderstanding this point---which I don’t consider to be any great shame (I’m only human. And no one knows everything)--- that is fine with me.
If you can link to a source that states that the Shia are not a “tribe” and/or the Sunni are not a tribe, and/or the Kurds are not a “tribe” I would be interested in seeing it. Other than that, I will not consider you a trustworthy reference because we have never even conversed before, as far as I can tell, yet your post is thoroughly asinine and you are assassinating my character over a single definition.
If you find this bit of “ignorance” “overwhelming”, then perhaps you need to develop a bit more inner strength or try iron supplements. Try not to blow away.
I
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 2, 2005 at 2:30 PM “The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven.”
“Upon the place beneath. Twice blessed, it blesseth he that gives and he that takes”
Portia’s speach from Merchant, Rabbit had to learn it off by heart in English Literature, Dave too?
Posted by Rabbit on Dec 2, 2005 at 10:42 PM Whoops, “upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed, it blesseth he that gives and he that takes.”
Heh what happened to Rabbit’s first post ?
Posted by Rabbit on Dec 2, 2005 at 10:44 PM Yes, English Literature was a great class. Seems like yesterday.
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute to God himself,
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this:
That in the course of justice none of us
Should see salvation. We do pray for mercy,
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.Shakespeare - Merchant of Venice
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 2, 2005 at 11:08 PM Once again the Rabbit has been locked out, Rabbit is not allowed to post, probably Shills and Troll work.
Once again, Rabbit’s ghost must come forth, to cry out for justice..
He is known as the Ghost who hops.
Wolfie seems to be suggesting that, it doesn’t matter how people are killed, then this leads Rabbit to ponder the following.
Rabbit is just guessing, but Wolfie has probably not seen anyone die. Or if he has, they were probably not gauging their eyeballs, and tearing lumps of their own flesh away in a futile effort to stop the pain.
Rabbit contends that it makes a difference to the person who must die. True that difference may be of only short duration, the time taken from being struck to the time they actually cease to live, and feel. It is however quite possible to get an impression from people in the act of dying, as to how the experience is for them. If for example they are screaming in agony, in fact there are more different levels of agonised screams than there are laughing sounds, did you know that Wolfie? The facial expressions and the positions into which the bodies of the victims are contorted and also the physical reaction, like running in utter abondoned terror and panic, or twisting and grovelling around in epileptic fits of pain, these things can all serve as indicators of how much difference th manner of death makes to this people, in their final moments.
However, let us say, I am an American, which means I am not likely to be the victim of such horrors, and thus the manner of death inflicted upon my country’s designated enemies is of no consequence to me. Especially since I as an American, do not understand consequences, like the fact that killing and torturing people sets a precedent for how I can expect to be treated if or when the day comes I lose.
To such an American the main difference it will make to him is merely how much it will cost, and it’s effectiveness.
Rabbit who has made WP out of Superphoshate, a home made retort and kiln as well as a bucket of water, can assure people it is as nasty as they say. In the water it is nice, and soft, a bit like putty, but a few seconds in the air, and it burns and it burns everything it touches. It cannot be put out.
If the idea is to kill and hurt and terrify the enemy, Rabbit has a few suggestions which Wolfie might like to pass along the chain of command, they are cheap and effective and they may help put WP in perspective.
Having now lost this post thrice, Rabbit will save and send this part first.
.............................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 3, 2005 at 12:40 AM Huh Huh...........Spook Bunny...........
The Natty has done a runner and the Rabbit is banned. She will be back shortly expecting to see the Rabbit dead, but will meet his ghost instead.
Now Wolfie, the Rabbit’s suggestions of better ways to kill your targeted population. It does not matter how it’s done, War is horrible and death is final, so how about we use the example of depleted urnium as an example. That is allowing the USA to get rid of lots of nasty uranium waste, at the same time as raining death and millions of years of radiation down on some brown people with the wrong god. True a small amount of it comes back to the USA as returned GIs, but they die and get buried sparsely enough that it doesn’t affect land values.
Why not dump all the waste chemicals from industry? there is lots of contaminated chemicals, some of them really bad, lots of old and contaminated batches of Sulphuric Acid. Sulphuric Acid is one of the main industrial products on the planet, iut is cheap and in plentiful supply but dropping it out of planes onto cties and towns will really cause a lot of death and suffering, not as spectactular as WP, but almost as painful and much slower acting The suppurating sores and dissolving tissues will cause a lot of demoralisation as the victims die over the next week or so. Not as horrible as WP, but the principle is similar.
Or what about all those dead cattle from Mad Cow culling. The diseased birds being slaughtered in their millions and the Pigs being destroyed due to Swine fever or foot and mouth, all the wasted, biologically risky carcasses could be bundled up and thrown out of planes onto the heads of the Iraqi’s in their cities and twons. Won’t a few thousand dead Pigs get their attention. This will spread lots of disease and the smell would also be bad. This is probably far too pleasant compared to WP, but we could still get rid of the carcasses, and some death and destruction will be sure to happen. hell, just having a cow come crashing through the roof into the living room should really bugger up some Iraqi’s day. After all, we are not trying to be nice to these people..
OK, rabbit can see this is an idea with limited aplication, but try it on Cheney, he would love it I’ll bet. Congress would pass it no doubt. They’d pass such a law if it was to be applied to US citizens thinks Rabbit.
What about all the effluent and sewerage? Why should Americans have to pump all that sewerage and pollution out into their oceans and under their ground, when there is a whole big sand box in the middle east into which they can just pour the lot, straight onto the heads and houses of those inhumane, terrorist Muslims. Thids is bound to cause massive disease and suffering, slower, but inevitably just as many people may die, and actually their deaths would be preferable to that suffered by WP, if the corpses and expressions of the victims is anything to go by.
Rabbit has so many good ideas for how you could kill people, if you think it doesn’t matter how it is done. Perhaps the most genius one is the simplest and most poetic. It is symbolic, justifying and honest all in one. It would be a new form of warfare, and best of all, the generals who like fire and smoke, will love it. Obviously Generals would not get any thrill out of ordering 1000 tons of sewearge dropped over a city. Compared to the sheer majesty, the bone stiffening joy of ordering Bombs dropped.
What about OIL? We could use tanker planes and drop a few million barrels of oil over the towns and cities, then a few matches. OK, a few clusters of Napalm, if you must, just to light it up. That will get rid of them, less painful and quicker than WP, and we can just start pumping Oil, through Israel, and get on with planning the next pre-emptive strike.
Look at the poesy. Using their own oil to burn the bastards, so you can take the rest without problems.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 3, 2005 at 1:07 AM If the Terrorist uses a bomb to blow up an airplane and the plane crashes killing everyone onboard, that is evil.
If he kills the people by spraying Gasoline all over them and then setting them on fire, it would still class as an evil act.
Terrorists, make the argument that there are no innocent civilians in a war of retaliation against state injustice, when the state is a democracy. The victims of the bombing were legitimate targets for the Terrorist. His task is to apply maximum shock, bring attention to his plight from the largest number of people.
The people of a democracy, by their own account have some say in what their governments do. It is true that enough public outrage will shift a government. If those people are not doing this then they are not unreasonably, deemed complicit. By virtue of this reasoning the Terrorists kill a number of people, often randomly, in order not to exert their power, not to destroy us or anything about us, as the LIARS would tell us. They kill these people to attract our attention, yes to make us afraid, in the belief that if we are sufficiently inconvenienced, or afraid then we may pay attention to the injustices which are invariably behind the complaints of these people. Rabbit is not saying this lightly, he has considered the claims of our side, we have heard them endlessly. They hate our freedoms and our way of life. Rabbit knows it, and he has heard it before.
Rabbit hates our loss of freedoms and the way of life sucks too if you ask me. Nonetheless neither Rabbit nor any brown people with a different coloured god, are sufficiently disenchanted with either your freedom(or lack of it) or your way of life, to want to fly airplanes at your skyscrapers.
If indeed any such people did this on 911, it seems not unreasonable for them to use the thusly created media moment, which is what it finally boils down too, to say what it is they want. Rabbit knows what this is, they have always made it clear, get out of our land, stop interfering with our politics and stealing our resources. Yet no such demands were forthcoming, and nobody better start claiming it did. Bin Laden initially denied involvment, and mainatined this for some time. The later video statements have become more and more doubtful in authenticity and they have never formed a coherant picture. Basically nobody stepped up to the plate, and said this is why we did it. Rabbit is aware that it is a long time since any terrorist attack did have any such attending it, it is one of the things which seems to mark State sponsored, or False Flag attacks. On in the event the claims have emerged as with the London bombings, they have obviously been forged.
Well then, all that said, why is it worse if that terrorist douses the people with Gasoline and sets them on fire or drops them into a vat of acid, rather than just shoots them or blows them up?
Because it just is, and humane people know it.
It is pretty bad when your big mighty army, in the process of losing a war with a small and broken nation, manages to maim and kill a vastly disproportionate number of civilians. ............but it is infinitely worse when you decide to dump Nuclear waste, Napalm and White Phosphorous upon the heads of the civilian population and their towns and cities as well.
You have become a sick and evil nation Wolfie, get over it and go burn some babies or whatever you guys do when your’re not advocating others do it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 3, 2005 at 3:09 AM GhostRabbit, I cannot seem to sign on to your blog to make comments---Blog won’t accept any of my names, or even other people’s names like “stupid”. Don’t know what the problem is, but you’ve posted here so I will reply here:
Crazy ain’t it? It’s the advertizing. U.S. people don’t believe that poison is a bad thing.
Killing somebody in a war is just making hash-marks on your gun barrel, or writing your mother’s name on a nuclear warhead.
It’s all just symbolism, “politics”, and pictures with the constant footage and few sentences it takes to call itself “news”.
All that matters Rabbit, is if we buy it and which of two opinions we will choose to have.
We’re the bubble people. Cyborgs included.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 3, 2005 at 8:14 AM Shia
Sunni
Kurd
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 2, 2005 at 10:21 PM
Wikipedia cool, but branching and easy for adhd mind to stray from the path. Did you read it all? Is there anything here stating that it would be “wrong” to call the Shias of Iraq a “tribe”?
I’ll go ask Dahr Jamal and see if he writes back with an answer.
toodles
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 3, 2005 at 2:40 PM Yes, I did read the wikipedia entries. A better word to describe the Shia and Sunni would be denominations. Sunni and Shia are examples of denominations of Islam. Kurds are an ethnic/linguistic group of people. There are different tribes and clans within Kurds and some Kurds are even Shia or Sunni Muslims by denomination. There are different clans, tribes, ethnic groups within Sunnis and Shias as well.
But I certainly would not call you an idiot over a simple definition. As you said thoroughly asinine . Share the knowledge I always say. Nicely.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 3, 2005 at 3:43 PM Consulted Dahr Jamail about terminology and got this answer:
“Here’s the very short answer to your issue.
Shia are definitely not a tribe. Shia and Sunni are the two main sects of Islam. You were correct in assuming that most of southern Iraqis are Shia---they are. But tribes in Iraq can be both sects of Islam, and some of the bigger tribes are both Shia and Sunni. In fact, there are 10s of thousands of marriages in Iraq between Shia and Sunni.
Kurds are an ethnicity in Iraq...and most of them are Sunni. But Kurds are not figured into the mix when folks talk about 60% of Iraqis are Shia and 20% are Sunni....they keep Kurds separate based on their ethnicity. This is because most of the Shia and (other) Sunni are Arab.
So that’s the rough break down.
If you talk about tribes in Iraq-they go by names-like Dulaimey, Samarri, Falluji, etc.
Hope this helps some,
Dahr”
I should have used the term “sect” to describe the Shia instead of “tribe”, and will have myself tied to the mast and pistol-whipped for making such an egregious error
(If you were playing Felonious Grammar’s drinking game “The Hammered Word” right now, you would take a shot for seeing or hearing the word “egregious").
I knew the Kurds were Meditteranean and not Arab, but was shocked to see that they are mostly Sunni. Waddya know, learn something new every day
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 3, 2005 at 8:02 PM Rabbit thinks the best way to compare Shia and Sunni branches of Islam is to consider Protestants and Catholics.
They basically differ on the authority, to represent the original God idea. One lot believes the prophet’s authority passes on in one way and the other mob have a different view.
Wiley, Rabbit knows not what is up with his blog. Maybe you need to register a name with Blogger? Ask Dave, he works it anyway. Being a fiddly paws Rabbit means sometimes I turn on or off some weird functions.
Also what Dahr Jamail said.
Rabbit read his
article Fallujah Pacified this morning.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 3, 2005 at 10:53 PM By the way Wiley.
Rabbit’s best Middle Eastern Friends are Kurdish Iranians. They are all Pershmerga, living on Nato passports in Europe these days. Some were in the Shah’s guard even.
They taught Rabbit to make Hashish properly, nice guys and not religious at all. They were of cause obviously Muslim though in the sense of the basic cultural differences, just as Rabbit is Christian in the same sense, despite being excommunicated by the Christian Church, and having long since identified himself as Budhist and finally Gnostic.
Anyway, the difference between Shia and Sunni is no more complicated and maybe less so, than the Protestant break with the Roman Church.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 3, 2005 at 10:59 PM Rabbit just read something which makes him think of Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, and broought a tear to his eye. Rabbit too can identify with all the feelings of this Canadian.
P-51 - An American
Ambassador Remembered
By Lea MacDonald
leamacdonald@wapda.com
12-4-5
It was noon on a Sunday as I recall, the day a Mustang P-51 was to take to the air. They said it had flown in during the night from some US airport, the pilot had been tired.
I marveled at the size of the plane dwarfing the Pipers and Canucks tied down by her, it was much larger than in the movies. She glistened in the sun like a bulwark of security from days gone by.
The pilot arrived by cab paid the driver then stepped into the flight lounge. He was an older man, his wavy hair was grey and tossed . . . looked like it might have been combed...say, around the turn of the century. His bomber jacket was checked, creased, and worn, it smelled old and genuine. Old Glory was prominently sewn to its shoulders. He projected a quiet air of proficiency and pride devoid of arrogance. He filed a quick flight plan to Montreal (Expo-67, Air Show) then walked across the tarmac.
After taking several minutes to perform his walk-around check the pilot returned to the flight lounge to ask if anyone would be available to stand by with fire extinguishers while he “flashed the old bird up . . . just to be safe.” Though only 12 at the time I was allowed to stand by with an extinguisher after brief instruction on its use—“If you see a fire point then pull this lever!” I later became a firefighter, but that’s another story.
The air around the exhaust manifolds shimmered like a mirror from fuel fumes as the huge prop started to rotate. One manifold, then another, and yet another barked—I stepped back with the others. In moments the Packard-built Merlin engine came to life with a thunderous roar, blue flames knifed from her manifolds. I looked at the others’ faces, there was no concern. I lowered the bell of my extinguisher. One of the guys signaled to walk back to the lounge, we did.
Several minutes later we could hear the pilot doing his pre flight run-up. He’d taxied to the end of runway 19, out of sight. All went quiet for several seconds, we raced from the lounge to the second story deck to see if we could catch a glimpse of the P-51 as she started down the runway, we could not. There we stood, eyes fixed to a spot half way down 19. Then a roar ripped across the field, much louder than before, like a furious hell spawn set loose---something mighty this way was coming.
“Listen to that thing!” Said the controller. In seconds the Mustang burst into our line of sight. Its tail was already off and it was moving faster than anything I’d ever seen by that point on 19. Two thirds the way down 19 the Mustang was airborne with her gear going up. The prop tips were supersonic; we clasped our ears as the Mustang climbed hellish fast into the circuit to be eaten up by the dog-day haze.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 3, 2005 at 11:54 PM We stood for a few moments in stunned silence trying to digest what we’d just seen. The radio controller rushed by me to the radio. “Kingston radio calling Mustang?” He looked back to us as he waited for an acknowledgment. The radio crackled, “Kingston radio, go ahead.” “Roger Mustang. Kingston radio would like to advise the circuit is clear for a low level pass.” I stood in shock because the controller had, more or less, just asked the pilot to return for an impromptu air show!
The controller looked at us. “What?” He asked. “I can’t let that guy go without asking . . . I couldn’t forgive myself!” The radio crackled once again, “Kingston radio, do I have permission for a low level pass, east to west, across the field?” “Roger Mustang, the circuit is clear for an east to west pass.” “Roger, Kingston radio, we’re coming out of 3000 feet, stand by.” We rushed back onto the second-story deck, eyes fixed toward the eastern haze.
The sound was subtle at first, a high-pitched whine, a muffled screech, a distant scream. Moments later the P-51 burst through the haze . . . her airframe straining against positive Gs and gravity, wing tips spilling contrails of condensed air, prop-tips again supersonic as the burnished bird blasted across the eastern margin of the field shredding and tearing the air.
At about 400 Mph and 150 yards from where we stood she passed with an old American pilot saluting . . . imagine . . . a salute. I felt like laughing, I felt like crying. She glistened, she screamed, the building shook, my heart pounded . . . then the old pilot pulled her up . . . and rolled, and rolled, and rolled out of sight into the broken clouds and indelibly into my memory.
I’ve never wanted to be an American more than on that day. It was a time when many nations in the world looked to America as their big brother, a steady and even-handed beacon of security who navigated difficult political water with grace and style; not unlike the pilot who’d just flown into my memory. He was proud, not arrogant, humble, not a braggart, old and honest projecting an aura of America at its best. That America will return one day, I know it will.
Until that time, I’ll just send off a story; call it a reciprocal salute, to the old American pilot who wove a memory for a young Canadian that’s stayed a lifetime.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 4, 2005 at 12:06 AM In a discussion about White Phosphorous use, Iraq and LIES, this is relevant.
I hope those who are facilitating the evil and the lies, by their willful ignorance and cheerleading, feel as much shame as many of you must feel sadness. No less the Rabbit, who grew up thinking he was an American, from TV and movies and music. It was a bit of a dispointment for a young Rabbit to learn he could not really be a cowboy, since he was not an American. But he aspired to be John Wayne or Clint Eastwood, Steve Austen The six million dollar man.
Now hardly a day goes by where Rabbit does not have his anger and disgust with the USA further strengthened by events. Every day Rabbit feels , if not proud to be from a Bootlicking, hypocritical nation of Australia, at least infinitely grateful to be here and an Aussie than to be anywhere and an American.
Sure as I am that Australia hasn’t yet done anything we can’t fix in a few years, economically even, so sure am I that the USA is destined to be paying an as yet incalculable price, but it will be huge, for many generations.
Not least of which will be a fall in grace, which will see your nation shamed far worse than Japan, or Germany achieved in their brief moments of madness.
This is what you need to fear.
Rabbit has before said it looks like the poor USA is being set up for destruction. The shiny house on the hill, where the lights never go out, and the party is always going. Never noticing the danger creaping up from without, in the suffering darkness. Content that the guards are out and the fences are all strong. Ignorant to the fact that the fences are broken and the guards are being replaced even by day with foreigners.
The rest sent away on a fools errand.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 4, 2005 at 12:15 AM A quote therefrom, minus links. Rabbit desires that the following distinction be made, something WTH, and others never grasped either. Just because I support the fact that one force may be dominating another doesn’t mean I have to support either in the end run. The real enemy is several levels beyond our petty national politics.
In a sense, every time we report on the latest embarrassment to inflict America’s geopolitical standing, we are helping the Globalists further their ultimate end game. Should we be silent on such issues? Obviously not. But we should go to great lengths to stress that these events are designed to make America look bad and they are designed to prop up the world government fake left-wing alternative of the EU and the UN.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Both Republicans and Democrats are reading off a script. On the very same day people like Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton and Joe Lieberman will come out in support of the war while Bush repeats tiresome cliches of staying the course. This is meant to make Americans turn away from the now obvious one party system and look to the international stage for relief.
The fact that a President who has to ask permission to use the bathroom and loses a battle of wits with a door is supposedly in charge of the biggest superpower on earth is again designed to make America look foolish in comparison to the austere, enlightened and rational image of the global government model.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 4, 2005 at 12:20 AM I guess I’m involved in a ‘can’t see the forest for the cute little christmas trees’ discussion again.....
I’ll wait...maybe some Henry George hopeful will resurrect as the next NYC mayor wannabe, and people will start thinking about their land, money and goods in an entirely different way. Especially if they really start thinking about themselves, their families, and the future.
They might even start thinking about what might be ‘good’.
It could happen.
Really, it could
Posted by minerva on Dec 5, 2005 at 10:45 PM Ps:
Regarding the ongoing treatment of detainees...in their various international holding areas....
Do you think that partial drowning of prisoners is
1) physical mistreatment
2) psychological torture
3) a fun way to break the monotony and horror of a never shift
or
4) all of the above?
Posted by minerva on Dec 5, 2005 at 11:33 PM What about
5) Justifiable if it makes me feel less terror and more safe.
............
Minerva, you have to give them at least one choice they can identify with.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 6, 2005 at 7:15 PM Don’t feel lost, dear. You’re on the “White Phosphorous Lies” thread. We haven’t said a lot about White Phosphorous, but what can ya say? Horrors! Now that I think about it though, methinks, the the use of White Phosphorous (like there aren’t powerful LIGHTS on helicopters) should be illegal.
When the only difference between the use of a weapon being legal or illegal is intention, then we ought to err on the side of restraint. This includes (for me) the manufacture of live vaccines---especially those resurrected from a pandemic.
I’d say that the partial drowning of prisoners is morally FUBAR and anyone who takes part in this practice who is not a sociopath or psychopath, and anyone who is a victim of this practice (no matter their level of development in human bondedness) is and will become a different person---an alien even to themselves---and will be torn for life. They’ve hotwired their brains with the emotional lizard/brain intensity, violation of limits that resets “the bar”, and inhumanity.
If you want to guarantee that people will become worse and/or weaker people, then have them tortured or have them torture a human being who has been stripped of all defenses.
And it will only make the world a more dangerous place filled with more of the kind of rage that drives people ‘out of their minds’.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 7, 2005 at 10:26 AM People eventually become what they are pretending to be.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 7, 2005 at 4:00 PM When the only difference between the use of a weapon being legal or illegal is intention, then we ought to err on the side of restraint. This includes (for me) the manufacture of live vaccines---especially those resurrected from a pandemic.
Works for Rabbit. He worries a bit about them dicking around with nasty horrible things just because they can. How about we just start taking ourselves and our precarious presence on this lump of rock ,swooping through space at incomprehensible speeds, SERIOUSLY.
One does not have to be a Micro-biologist to notice the strange patterns of pandemics and prion diseases, it is too much like that of the Speed Radar and the Radar Detectors, or the Virus and the Anti Virus Programs. It looks a hell of a lot like both sides are playing the middle in all cases.
The middle being us of course.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 7, 2005 at 11:22 PM Here is something for which caution would be advised, but of course they won’t.
Bloody Daleks,
what next?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 8, 2005 at 3:48 AM “...so be careful about what you pretend to be.”
Kurt Vonnegut
( the guy’s extremely quotable, what can I say)
Posted by minerva on Dec 8, 2005 at 7:26 PM People eventually become what they are pretending to be.
(and I was quoting, loosely from memory, from C.S. Lewis - The Screwtape Letters)
...so be careful about what you pretend to be.
(has a nice finish to the line - thanks Minerva and Mr. Vonnegut)
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 8, 2005 at 7:58 PM Thanks for the link to the Henry George information, wileywitch.
Posted by minerva on Dec 8, 2005 at 8:06 PM I’ll answer from bottom to top.
Minerva, hope you found it stimulating. Henry was down to earth. “Progress and Poverty” is a good read, too. Wages and wealth will look different after you read it. For me, that meant that they started looking more like what they really are and not the illusion of some slimeball economic theory. (Like Freud and conceptions of them mind! Insidious. It’s hard to get out from under prior definitions alone.
David in Canada, what triggered the Lewis quote?
Rabbit,
How about we just start taking ourselves and our precarious presence on this lump of rock ,swooping through space at incomprehensible speeds, SERIOUSLY.
Amen. Hallelujah. Huzza.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 9, 2005 at 11:13 AM CS Lewis is on the rise lately. His star is shining brightly, his tales are finding a new audience, and he speaks with a tongue which we can more easily relate to in this day and age, perhaps.
The author who is constantly on Rabbit’s small mind, is Lewis Carroll.
Especially when thinking about politics and society.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 10, 2005 at 12:21 AM Does this not have a strange resonance with anyone, sound like any presidents we know?
ALICE was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, “and what is the use of a book,” thought Alice, “without pictures or conversations?’
-----------------------------------------------
“-- yes that’s about the right distance—but then I wonder what Latitude or Longitude I’ve got to?” (Alice had not the slightest idea what Latitude was, or Longitude either, but she thought they were nice grand words to say.)
Presently she began again. “I wonder if I shall fall fight through the earth! How funny it’ll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downwards! The antipathies, I think-” (she was rather glad there was no one listening, this time, as it didn’t sound at all the right word) “-but I shall have to ask them what the name of the country is, you know. Please, Ma’am, is this New Zealand? Or Australia?”
-----------------------------------------------------------
By the way, Lewis Carroll’s Rabbit is my idol.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 10, 2005 at 12:32 AM Uhhh...it sounds like a.d.d., except I like to look at the pictures.
If Alice were wondering how she could exterminate the antipathies and take their resources so that they could have freedom, then she would have sounded like W., and I would have left her where I found her.
Alice has curiosity.
And noticed how she thought “antipathies” instead of “anteopathigies”, or was that “antipathdegrees"---
“ Screw it! Call up Air Force One---I need to vacation in Crawford until Karl makes me come back.”
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 10, 2005 at 12:04 PM The Rabbit was never particluarly fond of Alice to be honest. She didn’t grow on me at all. Have just decided to re-read Alice, it’s amazing how many books one can find online these days. Every book Rabbit has gone looking for a quote from, has turned up in total on the web.
Re-reading 1984 next, it’s on the web of course, and easier than taking the book from the shelf at home.
Any way, Rabbit is on thread to add an article he just found about Torture and WP. It’s written with an emphasis on Condi, but the language is economical and thorough, for issues whicch can easily take up a lot more space.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 10, 2005 at 7:02 PM Wiley asks, David in Canada, what triggered the Lewis quote?
Your words here did :
I’d say that the partial drowning of prisoners is morally FUBAR and anyone who takes part in this practice who is not a sociopath or psychopath, and anyone who is a victim of this practice (no matter their level of development in human bondedness) is and will become a different person---an alien even to themselves---and will be torn for life. They’ve hotwired their brains with the emotional lizard/brain intensity, violation of limits that resets “the bar”, and inhumanity.
If you want to guarantee that people will become worse and/or weaker people, then have them tortured or have them torture a human being who has been stripped of all defenses.
And it will only make the world a more dangerous place filled with more of the kind of rage that drives people ‘out of their minds’.
People eventually become what they are pretending to be....so be careful about what you pretend to be.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 10, 2005 at 8:12 PM Dave that Jason Pappas is a Troll master................. Help the Rabbit is drowning in Troll piss...............................................
.....Troll Piss!Why did the Rabbit take a swipe at it when it was in it’s lair?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 11, 2005 at 4:14 AM Patience Rabbit.
Look for me at sunrise on the third day of the new moon.
January 3, 2006 .... or maybe sooner.
Swim Rabbit Swim .... Troll piss washes off too. Try a little soap.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 11, 2005 at 6:15 PM What the hell is “troll piss”?!
I’ll ask my trusty assistant Clouds in Blue Sky, too.
Rabbit swims?
Lairs?
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:25 PM This is the Troll lair, or cave Wiley. It is the same Papa Jason who blurted a bit on Torture, and who linked to his own Bigoted rant as proof of things he blathered there also. Rabbit saw a Troll cave and jumped in intrepidly, if a little foolishly, and wacked them all a bit.
Yet Rabbit is trying to extricate himself safely now, for they are shocked and wary, but by no means is such a site a place to remain for long. In and out. Before they have a chance to re-group, and trust in the relief they will then feel as the Rabbit backs out of the cave, and goes away.
The Papa Jason, their Troll Leader, seems to be held in some veneration by the others, and he has advised them to ignore the Rabbit, at this stage. Bit late since he is already missing a few toes, and the others have a bruise or two each, but cut your losses is language Trolls seem to understand on their home turf.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 12, 2005 at 3:16 AM Troll Piss is a Metaphor for what Trolls squirt out when frightened and fighten.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 12, 2005 at 3:19 AM I recently watched with horror a documentary film on line in which US troops are indiscriminately firing at a distance at civilians in vehicles trying to escape from the genocide in Fallujah. US troops admitted to the use of White Phosphorus or “willy pete” (the military code word) against civilians and not as a defensive smokescreen to disguise troop movements from the enemy. Photos of charred corpses are the proof that US WP projectiles were basically suffered mostly by civilians. The civilian casualty rate was higher than that of the insurgents.
That the US committed war crimes in Fallujah is beyond dispute! The US military also used Fuel Air Explosives that not only have an exceptionally strong concussion for a conventional explosive but generate such incredible heat that the rapid and thorough absorption of oxygen creates a large vacuum within which victims are literally crushed to death by the pressure. This is also a banned weapon under the 1980 geneva convention on inhumane anti-personel weapons.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Feb 10, 2006 at 11:16 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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